Losing all faith in America.....

[fraroc]

If this is in the wrong forum, please move it.



Growing up I was taught that America is the greatest country in the world and that everyone else is inferior. Now I realize that was nothing more than the biggest lie ever.

Everyone internationally never seem to have one nice thing to say about Americans. The "Ugly Fat American" stereotype is what caused this and is what is gonna contribute to the USA's potential downfall. Our government seems to do much more harm than good with our relations with other countries and as a result almost every single European country talks shit about us.

And we deserve it. For so many years we've done so many horrific things to minorities, raicism,xenophobia,gay bashing....I think its about time we were on the recieving end of the deal.

I'm not a politician. I don't take sides with any political party nor do I agree with their views, I'm just an 18 year old kid who actually takes time out to care about others (shocker). But I honestly cannot say i'm proud to be an American. Sometimes I just want to leave and move to a different country. But then theres the idea that most Americans are not welcome in Europe and Australia because of the whole "Ugly Fat American" stereotype. I feel like I'm surrounded by a giant wall. I want to get out but I feel like I can't.

If you are an American patriot, then good for you. You still have faith in America while mine was completley shattered.

Who else feels this way?

[Robodl95]

Honestly, I think that the bigger issue is the people who stereotype Americans and other groups. I just can't stand it. You'd think that we'd have moved past that behavior by now. If Europeans/Australians really have that big of an issue with us (which most don't) then that's their fault, they're showing that same xenophobic attitude that you're talking about in America. As for the other things that you mentioned, I think that everyone has things that they are proud and not proud of about their country. Xenophobia is a problem that a lot of countries face, and we still have a way to go on gay rights but at least we don't pelt tomatoes or hang them like in some countries. I am proud that we are free, mostly safe, clean, etc. Definitely far from utopia, but I wouldn't live anywhere else.

[Elyasis]

I don't think any country is entirely perfect. America is no exception. But that doesn't mean America is not a decent place to live. It just means those who do care about America need to be proactive and change the way it's perceived by making changes within America. At least in this country it's possible to make changes to the government without a violent overthrow of the old leaders. As a people we need to accept responsibility for ourselves and our international image. No one's going to come along and fix it for us.

[SimsLover50]

“Growing up I was taught that America is the greatest country in the world and that everyone else is inferior. Now I realize that was nothing more than the biggest lie ever. “

I think if you were taught this, then this is part of the problem. No country is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

“Everyone internationally never seem to have one nice thing to say about Americans.”

And so because other people hate us, that makes us wrong/evil/bad?

“ The "Ugly Fat American" stereotype is what caused this and is what is gonna contribute to the USA's potential downfall.”

If the sum extent as to why we are going to heck in a hand basket is because of a stereotype, I don’t agree.

“ Our government seems to do much more harm than good with our relations with other countries and as a result almost every single European country talks shit about us.

They talk shit about everyone, though. If you constantly are looking to get Europe’s approval, you’re going to be sadly disappointed in life.

“And we deserve it. For so many years we've done so many horrific things to minorities, raicism,xenophobia,gay bashing....I think its about time we were on the recieving end of the deal.

You are tarring everyone with the same brush, and that is just as bad as what you purport the Europeans are doing. Last I checked every country went through a phase of treating minoriites poorly, and not dealing well with homosexuality. That doesn’t mean, because some people in a country aren’t enlightened towards these issues, ‘we’ collective deserve bad treatment.

“If you are an American patriot, then good for you. You still have faith in America while mine was completley shattered.

While I’m sorry your faith in America is so easily shattered, you need to look at the big picture, of where the country is going and changing, and how we’ve changed. Nothing is ever black and white, and if you expect America- or Europe or any country to be totally evolved and enlightened you will be disappointed.

My advice would be to study more history, and not expect Americans to be perfect. The real world is a more complex shade of gray than that. Also, if you gauge your satisfaction with America based on anyone’s approval you are going to be disappointed. My second bit of advice is if you don’t like the way things are, to join organizations to affect the changes you want to see happen. America, is like life- what you make of it. We are cahanging and growing.

So to answer your question, no, I don't feel this way. We are not perfect, but neither is Europe or any other country. .

[BurgundyStars]

Everyone internationally never seem to have one nice thing to say about Americans. The "Ugly Fat American" stereotype is what caused this and is what is gonna contribute to the USA's potential downfall. Our government seems to do much more harm than good with our relations with other countries and as a result almost every single European country talks shit about us.

And we deserve it. For so many years we've done so many horrific things to minorities, raicism,xenophobia,gay bashing....I think its about time we were on the recieving end of the deal.

I'm not a politician. I don't take sides with any political party nor do I agree with their views, I'm just an 18 year old kid who actually takes time out to care about others (shocker). But I honestly cannot say i'm proud to be an American. Sometimes I just want to leave and move to a different country. But then theres the idea that most Americans are not welcome in Europe and Australia because of the whole "Ugly Fat American" stereotype. I feel like I'm surrounded by a giant wall. I want to get out but I feel like I can't.

No country is perfect and the 'greatest' countries often have the dirtiest histories. But I am quite confused as to why you're so concerned with the attitudes in Europe and Australia towards America. Those areas have extremely shameful histories as well. Many Western European countries were colonizers and exploited the resources and people of the lands they conquered. Many former colonizers like France and England are dealing with the aftermath of said exploitation with the influx of people from the former colonies searching for work because of the devastating impact of colonialism on their homelands. Racism is thus a huge problem throughout the entire continent, no matter what some Europeans claim.

And as for Australia... they are not exactly kind to the native population, or anyone who doesn't appear to be European for that matter. Plenty of Asian students studying there have discussed their experiences of discrimination. Indigenous Australians have experienced constant discrimination much like the Native Americans. So you see, every country has its good and not so positive qualities. Our society and every other nation's society are far too complicated to make such claims as "America is horrible" or "England is amazing".

On a lighter note, Australia actually took the crown from us for most obese nation a few years ago. I have no idea if that's still the case, but there's a silver lining to every cloud.

[pinketamine]

I would never live in USA, myself. That doesn't mean I hate the USA, I simply don't like some things about it... and personally would never live in a country without universal medical care. My ideology clashes with the "american way of life" totally. Anyway, if someone moves out from the USA to my country I don't care, I won't hate that person for having born in a country whose policies I tend to dislike.

By the way, one thing that I don't like is people referring to USA as "America". No, that's not its name, America is a continent, which is far bigger than the USA.

[Robodl95]

By the way, one thing that I don't like is people referring to USA as "America". No, that's not its name, America is a continent, which is far bigger than the USA.
What should we call ourselves then? United Statesians is awkward to say. America is just a shortened part of our name. It isn't even a continent because there's two, NA and SA. We have as much right to call ourselves Americans as people from The Republic of India do to call themselves Indians (because India is a sub-continent which encompasses several other countries besides India).

[Tempscire]

By the way, one thing that I don't like is people referring to USA as "America". No, that's not its name, America is a continent, which is far bigger than the USA.
Since I don't really have anything to add to address the OP (everyone else has covered that pretty well, I think), I'll address this. The full name of the country is the United States of America. For comparison, the country commonly referred to as Mexico and its citizens as Mexicans is fully named the United Mexican States. "China" is fully the People's Republic of China, yet no one protests we should refer to their nationality as People's Republicans.

However, your profile says you're in Spain-- is this correct? Is that your native country? Because I think language plays a big part in this "stop calling yourself Americans" thing. In Spanish, I understand, a US citizen would say he is an estadounidense. "Americano"-- American-- refers to the broader continent(s). However, that's not how the distinction is drawn in English, and when referring to the non-U.S., modifiers of North/Central/South are used.


ETA: Okay, guess I lied about not having anything to add to the OP. :P
I'm just an 18 year old kid who actually takes time out to care about others (shocker).
First off, just to be clear, I don't believe the US is perfect or beyond all criticism. Nor do I mean to dismiss your opinions with something as silly as age. BUT. I remember being high school-aged, when you have this perfect blend of worldly awareness and youthful confidence, and I'll just say that the attitude expressed in your post is not unique or unfamiliar. :) Speaking only for myself-- and I'm not a great deal older than you, really--you proceed to keep learning and keep getting new perspectives on top of what brought you to your current mindset. For myself, I find the US to be very flawed (and anyone trying to claim otherwise, or those who suggest that mentioning America's mistakes in history class is indoctrinating kids to hate their own country, ought never be listened to seriously), but I'm no longer of the "omg worst country ever" mindset. Every country has its pluses and minuses, and people are people everywhere.

[SimsLover50]

By the way, one thing that I don't like is people referring to USA as "America". No, that's not its name, America is a continent, which is far bigger than the USA.

It's an abbreviation.. Sadly, the people who named our country didn't think, how awkward it would be to call yourself a USA'an or USAian.

or worse: a united states of american. <edited>

[~Dee~]

I find it sad that you are growing up with the attitude that " if you are not from the US you are inferior".
I was subjected to that kind of thinking when I lived in California for a couple of years and I found it very immature. I loved the country itself, it's some of the people I didn't like.
The ones I met were loud, in your face and arrogant (no offense to the Americans here, it's just the ones I met personally), since "you are not from the US, you are beneath me" attitude.

Like already said, no country is perfect, every country has something in their past they wish to forget. History can't be undone but can be learned from.

I think your statement that Americans aren't welcome in Europe or Australia isn't correct. I can't speak for Europe since I haven't lived there in a long time, I live in Australia and we have Americans living here and the once I have met love living here, they say it's the best thing they ever did coming here.

I think what most Australians don't like is when non-English speaking people come here and don't bother learning the language. What a lot of them don't do, if you chose a country to immigrate to, you should have the decency to learn the language.

I hope you come to terms with your own country, I don't think it's as bad as you think.

[pinketamine]

Tell me more about your view of the "American way of life". Yep, I can totally picture a stereotypical American, watching TV like a couch potato and driving a car and wearing clothes made by the hands of illegal immigrants. The stereotypical American probably also lives in a suburban house with a wife, 2.5 kids, and a pet dog. :beer: :Pint:

Haha, no, I wasn't referring to that. When I said the "American way of life" is was thinking more in the education and health system. USA politics in general are much more right-winged than what I consider acceptable. As I said, I would never life in any country without a universal health and education system (this includes university too). And I don't support USA's defense policies, among other things. I just don't like how politics work in the USA, in general.

Since I don't really have anything to add to address the OP (everyone else has covered that pretty well, I think), I'll address this. The full name of the country is the United States of America. For comparison, the country commonly referred to as Mexico and its citizens as Mexicans is fully named the United Mexican States. "China" is fully the People's Republic of China, yet no one protests we should refer to their nationality as People's Republicans.

However, your profile says you're in Spain-- is this correct? Is that your native country? Because I think language plays a big part in this "stop calling yourself Americans" thing. In Spanish, I understand, a US citizen would say he is an estadounidense. "Americano"-- American-- refers to the broader continent(s). However, that's not how the distinction is drawn in English, and when referring to the non-U.S., modifiers of North/Central/South are used.
It might actually be a language problem. It doesn't bother me when people call themselves americans, I can understand that USAian sound awkward, what I dislike is naming the country itself America because it seems that they are simply ignoring millions of people who also live in America but not in the USA.

[Ledgo]

My take is that America is too large to generalize as a whole. We aren't a single nation as we use to be. Growing up, I wasn't taught "America is big, awesome, and the cool kid on the playground". I was taught more about Michigan and had general history on it.

I honestly pay little attention to people doing American stereotypes or anti-America sayings. I really can't be bothered to give a fuck about any of it. They can sit in their own ignorance. I don't hate any other nation in the world, nor do I think highly of ours because I think there are a lot of things we need to work on.

You don't need to be a patriot. You don't need to even need to support the nation. You SHOULD be grateful if you've had a good upbringing and had a chance to benefit from what other people had to pay taxes for, such as your schooling.

As for America doing these "crimes", every nation has done it at some point, many have done worse. No one is innocent in this world, and no one needs to be pointing fingers. The more you look at other people for them being a citizen of a nation, and less of a human, the more you are promoting this ignorance.

EDIT:Also, I'm 19. Age is nothing special.

[kattenijin]

because it seems that they are simply ignoring millions of people who also live in America but not in the USA.


Technically, they don't live in "America", they live in "the Americas".

[SimsLover50]

I can understand that USAian sound awkward, what I dislike is naming the country itself America because it seems that they are simply ignoring millions of people who also live in America but not in the USA.

We aren't ignoring them, though.

We are well aware there are others on the continent besides us and before us as well. So as they say, perception does not equal reality. We are simply the only ones who chose to be unimaginative and add it to the name of our country.

The name of the country really isn't something modern people have much to do with I'm afraid. The country was named America quite some time ago.

[paksetti]

I used to hate that I was a Texan because there's a lot of arrogance and hate floating around here. You're probably well aware of the way we treat our criminals. Some people actually still refer to us as the Republic of Texas.

I realized that I wasn't being fair. You can't just make such extreme generalizations about a huge group of people. Every country has it's flaws and it's strengths and you can't get hung up on stereotypes whether they're good or bad because people deserve more than that. No matter where I live, there's something I can take pride in.

I'm just an 18 year old kid who actually takes time out to care about others (shocker).I'm not a guru and I'm not your mom so I'm not going to tell you what to do, but I am going to say that people aren't sheep. It's weird that you say you care about people, but you just lump them together and judge them by their stereotypes.

[Sunbee]

One thing to remember, if you don't like the laws in one state, try a different. People often forget that the USA is sort of halfway between being a single country and a conglomeration of countries. Massachusetts has universal health care: if that's your cup of tea, move there. Our constitution's really pretty short and readable, and spells out pretty clearly what the federal government can and cannot do. The states can do pretty much anything not expressly reserved to the federal government. One way the federal government gets around this is bribery. Take the drinking age: States determine the drinking age. The federal government wanted it to be 21. So, since the federal government has certain road-related rights, they tied funding for the interstate highway system to states having a drinking age of 21. The state governments considered whether or not they wanted money, decided they did, and set the drinking ages the way the feds wanted it.

I think we ended up with the name we did for much the same reasons the European Union ended up with the name they did: there really wasn't a better choice for a conglomeration. As the union of the states evolved, the name stayed. The European Union doesn't contain every European nation (Switzerland, Iceland, Norway, off the top of my head), the United States of America doesn't contain every American nation. Remember that state and nation were synonyms at the time the USA was formed. If you object to the United States of America as a name, do you also object to the European Union as a name? If not, why not?

[Robodl95]

I think people from Europe or Asia are more prone to say "I'm European" or "I'm Asian" but it's not the same in the Americas. If you want to say I'm from ____ continent then they would say "I'm North American" or "I'm from South America". Just saying that you're from America would mean that you're from the US. A Canadian person wouldn't say they're from America.

I wasn't taught that America was the greatest nation ever either. There definitely is a lot of national pride and you're taught to be proud of our history and accomplishments, etc. but it was never so arrogant.

[fraroc]

I find it sad that you are growing up with the attitude that " if you are not from the US you are inferior".

I think that was mainly because of the Post-9/11 hysteria in America. I understand that you want to honor your country after a horrifying tragedy, but some of it became very extremist and it's sad....you see Rodney King-esque beatings by police all the time in the news because of racial profiling against the Middle East. Its fucking disgusting.

[SimsLover50]

I think that was mainly because of the Post-9/11 hysteria in America. I understand that you want to honor your country after a horrifying tragedy, but some of it became very extremist and it's sad....you see Rodney King-esque beatings by police all the time in the news because of racial profiling against the Middle East. Its fucking disgusting.

Please cite the incidents of rodney king-esque beatings by the police who are profiling middle easterners which are occuring 'all the time' in the us.

Police brutality occurs in every country, sometimes justified, sometimes not. But I don't really see this occuring 'all the time' in the US.

[Ledgo]

I think that was mainly because of the Post-9/11 hysteria in America. I understand that you want to honor your country after a horrifying tragedy, but some of it became very extremist and it's sad....you see Rodney King-esque beatings by police all the time in the news because of racial profiling against the Middle East. Its fucking disgusting.

I must be a little out of the loop. I don't see, read, or know of people getting beat down all the time. In fact, I don't know if I've even seen one.

Get some facts straight, lest ye' become what you complained about.

[belamancer]

"Everyone internationally never seem to have one nice thing to say about Americans. The "Ugly Fat American" stereotype is what caused this and is what is gonna contribute to the USA's potential downfall. Our government seems to do much more harm than good with our relations with other countries and as a result almost every single European country talks shit about us."

If you're going to worry about the negative things that each and every European country says about the USA you'll be crying until the end of time. Guess what? We talk shit about EVERYBODY. I'm British, and I can tell you with absolute certainty that European countries talk far more shit about each other than they do about the USA. France? Good god man, they eat frogs and snails and tiny birds drowned in alcohol! Cheese eating surrender monkeys the lot of them! Germany? Woah, I'm not even going to go there, they're such an uptight bunch. Poland? They keep coming over here, stealing our jobs and our health service, how dare they! We can't even get on with other people in our own country. Scotland is full of violent misers, the Welsh Will Not stop WHINING - yes I know it rains a lot, get over it! The South of England is full of soft southern pansies who know nothing about the hardships up North, the North of England is full of knuckle-dragging whippet breeding unemployed coal-miners. Everyone has some reason to stereotype and dislike everybody else.

Even if you were the most perfect country in all the world, shit would still be talked.

As for the "Ugly Fat American" stereotype, well stereotypes generally are bad, but this one is really not so much of a problem as you might think. I don't know why Americans think that everyone else thinks that. Sure, we know the average American is overweight, and we think we have the most awesome education system in the world ever, but the majority of people don't think you're all stupid fat and ugly. Do you have any idea how much American TV makes it overseas? And how many movies you produce? It's not like we haven't ever seen you at your best! I turn on the tv and I'm bombarded with images of the "ideal American" - tall, beautiful, successful people with careers in law and chemically whitened teeth. I know, I know, you're not all like that either - I'm just saying, we see a lot of American culture in moves and TV, and it doesn't suggest that you're ugly or stupid. That's a stereotype of tourists, and having lived in Edinburgh I met a fair few of those. If you don't want people to think "lol dumb Americans" when they see you, don't ask them where the castle is when you're standing on a bridge taking a picture of the lovely views of... the castle. :rofl:

But then again, the stereotype of British tourists is that we TALK VE RY SLOW LY AND LOUD LY IN ENG LISH because we can't be arsed learning any other languages, and we're a nasty violent lot who will wreck your football stadiums. Nobody likes tourists.

As for the rest of it, please don't beat yourself up for what you think your country has done wrong. You are not your country, you are not solely responsible for what your government has or has not done, and the majority of people in other countries will not hold you responsible. If that ever happens all you have to say is that you voted for the other guy.
And every country out there has some skeletons in the closet. Or lurching up out of the ground and attacking the populace ;) It's not a uniquely American thing.

My mum moved to the UK from Baltimore when she was 10, and while she did get picked on at school for having a funny accent (to us some American accents sound like you're talking in slow motion!), she never got any stick for it as an adult. And her mother has lived here for the past nearly 50 years, and she's never had any problems.

If you really want to travel, don't let the fact that you're American hold you back. Most people won't judge you badly for it.

[Tempscire]

If you want to say I'm from ____ continent then they would say "I'm North American" or "I'm from South America". Just saying that you're from America would mean that you're from the US.
Which is why I think it's really just a language/translation thing. A Brazilian might say they are an Americano rather than specifically saying 'South American'-- they are part of the Americas. With that convention, a US citizen saying they are American does seem to be saying that only this particular nation embodies all the Americas, just because English doesn't share the same national/geographic connotations and doesn't have a word equivalent to estadounidense ("United States"-centric rather than "of America"-centric).

It's basically the Serious Business version of the cookie/biscuit divide. ;)

[tongues]

Which is why I think it's really just a language/translation thing. A Brazilian might say they are an Americano rather than specifically saying 'South American'-- they are part of the Americas. With that convention, a US citizen saying they are American does seem to be saying that only this particular nation embodies all the Americas, just because English doesn't share the same national/geographic connotations and doesn't have a word equivalent to estadounidense ("United States"-centric rather than "of America"-centric).

It's basically the Serious Business version of the cookie/biscuit divide. ;)

If a Native of Brazil might call themselves Americano, how does a citizen of the US (or, frankly a great part of the world who shares the habit) referring to a citizen of the US as an American differ? Nor do I think how an in individual refers to themselves has anything to do with vanity or xenophobia - it's a cultural thing.
Like saying people from New Jersey, USA are from "Jersey". Well, they're not; Jersey is an island hugging the coast of France... But that's how people from my state refer to ourselves because it is argot. (common slang)

Bottom line - IMHO: People who never travel; who do not get exposed (and absorb) other cultural values as being different but just as valid is going to act ignorant simply because they are ignorant. And People from very large countries like those in the Americas seem to have less cross-continental experiences with travel and culture in the last 1/2 century.

[tongues]

To the main topic: Have I lost my faith in America? Well, I don't know that I ever bought in to the "yeah us" at everyone else's expense in the first place. But, the more I look at people and their petty, selfish ways, and observe our government and the chronic BS in the name of "democracy" and the universal good for me at the expense of my fellow human and the notion that my religious believes will preserve me but the rest of you are damned for disagreeing... I think I've lost my philathropy in general.

I still belive in feeding the world, giving shelter, clothing and care to those who live without basic human dignities... But step back from a person and observe people as a group? Bah! I have no use for the lot of them... When I see people acting badly everyday, I start to look more and more like my avatar.

[Tempscire]

If a Native of Brazil might call themselves Americano, how does a citizen of the US (or, frankly a great part of the world who shares the habit) referring to a citizen of the US as an American differ?
I didn't say it was vanity or xenophobia...? That's why I made the cookie reference. And it's different because of the connotation of "Americano," which I elaborated on in my previous post.

ETA:
And People from very large countries like those in the Americas seem to have less cross-continental experiences with travel and culture in the last 1/2 century.
As opposed to all that open-minded and intercontinental travel people were known for doing in the earlier half of the last century? I mean, sure, a good segment got to go abroad for the World Wars, but, uh...yeah. I'm not sure what your comparison point is, because the last 50 years have been great, travel-wise. What with the inventions of jets and otherwise fast and affordable travel options, whereas once upon a time no one got to go anywhere unless they were emigrating or insanely wealthy.

[tongues]

I didn't say it was vanity or xenophobia...? That's why I made the cookie reference. And it's different because of the connotation of "Americano," which I elaborated on in my previous post.

I wasn't picking on you... I think the problem is, I do not get the same connotation of Americano vs. American. Seems the same to me. Is that because I don't speak Portugese?

[Tempscire]

I wasn't picking on you... I think the problem is, I do not get the same connotation of Americano vs. American. Seems the same to me. Is that because I don't speak Portugese?
The Brazilian thing was just a random pick of the South American bag, as it were, and actually a bad one because of the Portuguese-speaking. Let's say a Venezuelan instead, where Spanish is much more prominent.

"Americano" has a connotation of all the continent(s). All the peoples, all the countries, together. (As I've had it explained to me, anyway.) To a Spanish speaker, an American calling himself an American sounds like he's limiting all the people and all the countries to only the one single country of the US. As noted upthread, we don't say USian, which would sorta be the direct equivalent of estadounidense, which is how you proclaim US citizenship in Spanish. We say American, instead, which sounds arrogant and over-inclusive to someone who uses American in a very different way.

[tongues]

The Brazilian thing was just a random pick of the South American bag, as it were, and actually a bad one because of the Portuguese-speaking. Let's say a Venezuelan instead, where Spanish is much more prominent.

"Americano" has a connotation of all the continent(s). All the peoples, all the countries, together. (As I've had it explained to me, anyway.) To a Spanish speaker, an American calling himself an American sounds like he's limiting all the people and all the countries to only the one single country of the US. As noted upthread, we don't say USian, which would sorta be the direct equivalent of estadounidense, which is how you proclaim US citizenship in Spanish. We say American, instead, which sounds arrogant and over-inclusive to someone who uses American in a very different way.

And hence I wonder if folks from New Jersey saying that they're from "Jersey" is implying that there is only one place named Jersey in the world or it's the slang they grow up with.

I submit that people in the US aren't trying to be arrogant - that's a perception from others - rather it's the slang they grew up with. People from New York don't say they're from "York". It's just a thing, but more is being read into it than is being implied by the folks from the US (or Britain, for example, which also refers to the US as America.)

[Tempscire]

And hence I wonder if folks from New Jersey saying that they're from "Jersey" is implying that there is only one place named Jersey in the world or it's the slang they grow up with.
I agree that it's not arrogance, but I don't think it's a matter of just slang either. It's just that English and Spanish are constructed differently. Jersey/New Jersey doesn't work as an analogy because there's not a language/culture difference affecting the perception of the two names, nor do I think there's any significant difference between "Jersey" vs. "New Jersey." The two imply the same place. ...which is why there's trouble going back and forth across English and Spanish, because many Spanish-speakers feel "Americans" are implying "America (US)" is the same place as all the Americas (North and South). It's more nuanced than just dropping the adjective.

[Robodl95]

It's okay to have multiple places called the same thing. Sometimes it's slang (none of us talk in completely "proper" English anyway) and sometimes it's just places with the same name. There are 38 towns/townships/cities named Springfield in the US alone. I don't think that calling New Jersey, Jersey is any different from calling the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland the UK.

[SimsLover50]

the term America has been used for America by Americans, for quite some time now. For instance, the song America the Beautiful, which was written in the late 1800's. While America may not be the 'official' name of our country it has been in use for hundreds of years, and I really don't see it as rude or arrogant to continue to use it. .

[mewichigo34]

You know,the form of government that our fore-fathers created was,in their time,wonderful,but the system has outgrown itself and simply needs to be changed.
For example:
Budget cuts=people cutting education first.
My reaction: :faceslap:
In my opinion,the world doesn't run on money like most Americans think,but rather it runs on education.Seriously,then Obama hires employees from Monsanto to work in the USDA.(Monsanto is the devil of the agricultural industry).Do I want to even start on genetic modification of living organisms and artificial meat?They've been finding new diseases that have been linked to GMO foods.Other countries are already aware of this and placing bans on GMOs and the newly renamed "Corn Sugar"(High Fructose Corn Syrup).Then the Corn Refiners Association made a commercial saying that your body can't tell the difference between a lab-made Corn Sugar and plain sugar.Did I mention that I don't think drinking and driving laws are being enforced well enough?No I didn't.I have seen way too many idiots that have been having a hard time staying out of the bike lane!

Well good night!

[SimsLover50]

I don't share the view that formal education is the holy grail or untouchable. There is a lot of fat to be cut, particularly at the college level, Yes, there are schools where there are inadequate funding. But there are also colleges where professorsand admins get treated like kings. If you feel that education deserves more funding, you should look at the top salaries of some college educators, many of who make hundreds of thousands of dollars, get free housing, special perks etc. One of the top salaries paid in the state of california is to a football coach at a major uni. To me, the salary he makes is gross.

I think salary for state funded workers and admins should be capped, and benefits as well.

For those who are curious, the top salaries for state workers in california are a matter of public record and posted here:
http://www.sacbee.com/statepay/?name=&agency=&salarylevel=

Top Earner:

HEAD COACH University of California, Berkeley: $2,349,037.96

followed by:

Head Coach of Athletics, UCLA: $2,076,534.61

[qpldmff]

What should we call ourselves then? United Statesians is awkward to say. America is just a shortened part of our name. It isn't even a continent because there's two, NA and SA. We have as much right to call ourselves Americans as people from The Republic of India do to call themselves Indians (because India is a sub-continent which encompasses several other countries besides India).

Ask any Latin American. There's a distinction between "americano" and "estadounidense." In several countries, students are taught that North and South America are one continent, America (and that Europe and Asia are another).

[Hawaiian.Barbie]

Im tired of people always blaming others, not taking reasonability for their wrongs. we all screw up but if you admit ur mistake and ask for help. most likely you will get it but blaming others and excepting them to take care of you or saying they are heartless or even trying to make them feel bad because you life isnt going well. it wrong! So, is expecting others to take care of them. we need to accept responsibility for ourselves stop waiting others to take care of you. I think like i said before if people will only ask for help & stop shaming others for it that they might find lots of are willing to give it for free.. Like myself.. i love to give! Its great to help others but no one should be forced to do it.. after all you can give someone food for a day and hell eat for a day but if you teach him to grow his food hell eat for a lifetime. once someone learns to do things for them self then they proud of themselves and it makes them want to get out and help others.. just a thought.

[Hawaiian.Barbie]

Another thing I dont like is when others say people are racist when they dont agree with their views!

[MsScribble]

. . . And we deserve it. For so many years we've done so many horrific things to minorities, raicism,xenophobia,gay bashing....I think its about time we were on the recieving end of the deal.

Well, you're right, and that's one of the reasons why people judge America, because you've done such damage. Not only to other countries but to each other. America doesn't seem to look after its own even in the most basic way; education and health being the two most obvious. Most Australian's I know, including myself, don't 'stereotype' Americans - we would treat any individual from America as just that if we met them - but we do judge the country and its people based on its actions. We get judged on our actions to. It is what it is. As someone said no country is perfect, but America is ugly.
And just quickly, I think anyone with half a brain is fully aware that many Americans are great people who crave change and feel helpless and trapped in the system.
If you want to live in another country, why not? I don't think people would treat you like you think they would, just because you're American.

[DrowningFishy]

@MsScribble your right America Doesn't seem to look after its own in the most basic way. Having grown up a step up from the bottom I know how every food bank struggles to feed all the people that need help. A food bank should NEVER, especially around holidays, have to pleed for donations. You see a bell ringer, you may not think it, but ten cents means a world of differance.

we send out millions of dollars to other countries for food. Yes, I understand it's being a good neighbor, but over looking this own countries needs. Our health care? Well yeah that's a big joke. Want the biggest scare of your life see some of these doctors that accept government health cards. Your safer going to free clinics. And Dentistry, oh lordy, how many americans are screwed on that end. As of recently CA has decided under MediCal they will no longer cover any dental.

American government spends billions on wars and police actions yet neglects their own people. Can we even say we are making a differance or are we just making matters worse. Trust me American news covers up a lot of truth, and also twists a lot of truth. Watch British news then watch our news and find a similar story and see how differnt is.

Is it bad if sometimes I wonder why we the people keep acting like whipped puppies instead of starting some sort of uprising? (other then lame riots in NY)

Sometimes I shake my head when I hear that the economy is doing great, yet see how packed a job fair is. Shoot my home town is a freaking ghost town. Like me many people have left to find jobs. Stores close down and what was a vibrant city is just full of people wandering aimlessly.

: shrugs : the only thing I can really say is the only thing about the next election I am looking forward to is Palin dropping out. Only wack jobs seem to be running for president. That includes Obama to me he's just a grandstanding moron (and you can't call me racist saying since he "claims" he's part Irish, tsch, Grandpappy would have a feild day with that one if he was alive).

[zigersimmer]

I would never live in USA, myself. That doesn't mean I hate the USA, I simply don't like some things about it... and personally would never live in a country without universal medical care. My ideology clashes with the "american way of life" totally. Anyway, if someone moves out from the USA to my country I don't care, I won't hate that person for having born in a country whose policies I tend to dislike.

By the way, one thing that I don't like is people referring to USA as "America". No, that's not its name, America is a continent, which is far bigger than the USA.

And I'd rather not live in a socialist state. You stay in your socialist world, and I'll live in the free world, okay?

[pinketamine]

And I'd rather not live in a socialist state. You stay in your socialist world, and I'll live in the free world, okay?

Spain has universal health care. Spain is not a socialist state. Those two things are not related so I don't see the point on your comment.

[Miko09]

If this is in the wrong forum, please move it.



Growing up I was taught that America is the greatest country in the world and that everyone else is inferior. Now I realize that was nothing more than the biggest lie ever.


Where you born in the 60's? That is totally Reagan ideology. The only people I've heard speak of America in that fashion were children and uniformed adults. America was definitely more well off than other countries when I was growing up, but I was never taught that other countries were inferior. I have heard people say that this is one of the nicest places to live and I have to agree. Universal medical care or not, there a lot of freedoms allowed here than in other countries. Doesn't make it the greatest.

I would never live in USA, myself. That doesn't mean I hate the USA, I simply don't like some things about it... and personally would never live in a country without universal medical care.

So...have you actually been to America or are you just talking out your ass? Saying that you would never live in a country just because it didn't provide you with health care sounds pretty American to me. Sounds like you'll fit in fine here.

[pinketamine]

So...have you actually been to America or are you just talking out your ass? Saying that you would never live in a country just because it didn't provide you with health care sounds pretty American to me. Sounds like you'll fit in fine here.

I've been there. A friend of mine had a small accident and she needed some stitches (I hope this is the correct word, my dictionary says it is). She had to pay for them. In Spain you don't have to pay anything if you need some stitches... or if you need a surgery. Health care is financed with the taxes everyone pays.
I'm maybe weird, but I think health care and basic education are universal rights and all countries should provide them to their citizens for free; and in developed countries this is perfectly possible.

[SuicidiaParasidia]

I've been there. A friend of mine had a small accident and she needed some stitches (I hope this is the correct word, my dictionary says it is). She had to pay for them. In Spain you don't have to pay anything if you need some stitches... or if you need a surgery. Health care is financed with the taxes everyone pays.
I'm maybe weird, but I think health care and basic education are universal rights and all countries should provide them to their citizens for free; and in developed countries this is perfectly possible.

*cough* america's education system is in the toilet. maybe thats why nobody's bothered about the lack of universal health care.


..just sayin'. :|
("stitches" is the correct word, btw.)

having lived here my entire life, i can easily say that the US is overly individualistic (and too invested in drama, in general, like a giant high school). to the point of seeing someone in serious trouble, and walking by, because they dont want to get "involved". yet at the same time, oh so willing to punish a woman for having sex, because they personally dont have to deal with the baby it produces. america's biggest lie is "freedom of choice"...you're free to choose, but not without people clothes-lining you for it.
greed and selfishness are beginning to permeate the culture, and i for one... am saddened by this. the US has potential, but it needs serious work--work that nobody wants to help each other (based on the concept that to be successful, you must be highly competitive and hoard what you do achieve, regardless of whether or not you need it) to achieve--to progress. people here are too nosy about the little things and not involved enough in the important matters. it will crumble if it continues this way. everyone has a voice, and that is as much a curse as it is a blessing (particularly when the majority has their heads buried firmly in the sand).

it may be a harsh critique, and certainly not everyone in the US is like that, but if we're ever to get anywhere, we need to stop fooling ourselves and baby-talking through the serious crap. and invest in a balance of things. balance is sustainable; a system that relies on perpetual growth, is not.

[DrowningFishy]

Of course the education system is in the toilet, want me to tell you about "special" education? It's where you sit in a room and get credit for not acting up. Want to know what highschool special ed classes consist of, well go back to fifth grade. Congratulations if your school has special education and they actually teach stuff. However I think with the whole no child left behind thing it might have gone the way of the dinosaurs; not certian. By the time I graduated HS I only had pre-algebra (1+a=2 what is a type stuff). My reading ability was at college level but my writing was at 4th grade level... ... YEAH I'm not even 30 yet. Here I take the bus and I see kids holding text books that are falling apart that hasn't been updated in like forever. I hear from the lady I rent from who is a teacher because of the no-child law every child has to take English class (Language) even the kids who speak and write English. Though I have to give credit HS now days are doing math I never even herd of.

Over all I have already lost faith in my country. Everyday I spend 2 plus hours about traveling on the bus; It would be a 30 minute drive. Then working a full day dragging myself back home only to find one more bill to pay. The constant worry about rent, bills, general survival. Never being able to afford going out and having a good time. Only reason I can afford fast food on Sundays is because two tacos and a coffee cost 2.65 at Jack in the Crack. Other wise it is constant TV dinners because anything fresh is unaffordable. Not having health insurance and the constant reminder you have kidney disease that is a ticking time bomb.

It's the lack of an American dream that crushes you.Even when you get to what seems to be your dream life barely changes because now you have to support the dream,

And those you think are in highpaying jobs, there not really anymore. Man how many times I have herd "Oh, your a security gaurd you must get paid good money," all I can do is laugh and point out the people working at McDonalds make more money then me after a year, and better benifits."

[Miko09]

I think the main problem with America, like SuicidiaParasidia pointed out, is that it's a very individualistic country. Probably it's biggest help and it's biggest downfall.

[perihelion]

And as for Australia... they are not exactly kind to the native population, or anyone who doesn't appear to be European for that matter. Plenty of Asian students studying there have discussed their experiences of discrimination. Indigenous Australians have experienced constant discrimination much like the Native Americans. So you see, every country has its good and not so positive qualities. Our society and every other nation's society are far too complicated to make such claims as "America is horrible" or "England is amazing".

On a lighter note, Australia actually took the crown from us for most obese nation a few years ago. I have no idea if that's still the case, but there's a silver lining to every cloud.

Some points here:

You're falling into the generalization trap. The people who mistreat Aborigines, Asians etc. are usually the racist loudmouthed yahoos (quite a few of which, sadly, are in Parliament) the rest of us are desperately trying to distance ourselves from.

Yes, every country has its flaws, but the point the OP seems to be making is that America - the United States of America, billions of people call it America so you're stuck with it - is for the most part completely unapologetic about its flaws and many Americans jump up and down in a display of revoltingly jingoistic pride knowing full well that they live in a country where the banks were allowed to completely ruin the financial system and trigger a global financial crisis, where universal health care was only recently introduced amid jeers of "socialized medicine", racist groups are allowed to openly parade their hatred (in Australia that will get you jail time), food and drink are so poorly regulated that citizens regularly run the risk of consuming harmful chemicals and disease organisms, and both military and foreign policy from the 1960s onward has been one long campaign of paranoid boogeyman hunting interspersed with resource grabbing and religious colonialism.

Not all Australians hate the United States, but the vast majority do, and if you're an American coming to visit, you better damned well be polite if you want to avoid trouble.


The whole thing about "blah blah blah SOCIALISM!" really gets up my nose. I'm a socialist and nothing going on in America right now even remotely resembles my political beliefs. Australia has operated on a liberal form of socialism since the 1970s and we have thrived as a result. It was socialist policies in the late 2000s that allowed us to escape the GFC relatively unscathed. Socialism, you say? You could USE some socialist policy!

[RoseCity]

Some points here:

You're falling into the generalization trap. The people who mistreat Aborigines, Asians etc. are usually the racist loudmouthed yahoos (quite a few of which, sadly, are in Parliament) the rest of us are desperately trying to distance ourselves from....
Not all Australians hate the United States, but the vast majority do, and if you're an American coming to visit, you better damned well be polite if you want to avoid trouble.

Are you saying that the Australian yahoos don't represent the majority of Australians, but in the US the yahoos do? Because we're not all like that either. And believe me, I hate the things this country does. And the banking crisis was caused by banks worldwide. But thanks for the heads up about not visiting there.

[perihelion]

No, you're not all like that. I know some perfectly lovely Americans. There is a good reason why the Ugly American stereotype exists, though.

[joandsarah77]

I have to agree about never moving to a country that doesn't offer 'free' health care. (We all pay from our taxes for it to be free) I do have private health cover now but for years I used Medicare. I just can't imagine what people in America do if they don't have access to free health care. To me that's the same as education; it should be a right for everyone to access no matter how poor they are.

We are known as a very multicultural place and I don't think we have racism any more than any other country. If you look at our history then yes there have been some horrible things done, but nothing worse than anywhere else. People are people whatever country they come from and you can't control how people think.

Since when did we all hate American's? I enjoy talking to people online from all over. I know people from America, Canada, England, Denmark, Portugal, South Africa, Singapore, the Bahamas and probably some other places that I've forgotten. I think it’s wonderful how international the internet is.
There has been some confusion over words a few times- mostly rather amusing, and one time an American did take something the wrong way-that's their own fault for assuming the rest of the world uses the same words the same way. There is a little thing such as asking for clarification before going off. There are some things that get up my nose about certain American companies. You try filling out a long form, searching for international posting to realize in the fine print "Excluding Australia" Or that they want to charge you $100 shipping on some books- not kidding that’s how much Amazon wanted! I’ve had a couple of parcels sent to me by American friends and even paying the postage of the company to them and their postage to me is cheaper. That does not mean I hate all American's, I've known some lovely ones online for the past 5 years.

Also yes quite a few of us were born in the 1960's.

[perihelion]

I never said we ALL hate Americans, read my post properly, I said THE VAST MAJORITY OF US do. You should have seen the protests and violence when USS Kitty Hawk stopped in Sydney a few years back.

[piggypeach]

I feel the need to quote myself.... from the vent forum....

I just want to say something:

I know that Americans have a certain reputation. For being lazy scumbags who are ignorant and fat. And stupid. But everyone here just has to remember that here on MTS, you know an idiot when you see one, and saying that someone is a stupid american just because they were being stupid is a hurtful form of prejudice, at least hurtful to me. I am from England, but I've lived in America for almost all my life. I can argue that more than the majority of people who I'm acquainted with don't even come close to some snotty European's point of view of us as a whole. It really bugs me that on this site, since there are both people from European countries, America and Canada, and possible some other countries that I don't know about, people just seem to put themselves higher than the Americans and say "you are such an American! I bet you've never even done.... [insert something Europeans do here].

A couple of you might've noticed the person who put a vent where he shouldn't have, in the creator's feedback forum, (here it is) (http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=477896) and he started saying things about the uploadmanager and how they were so American that they don't know what the Europeans know. He has absolutely no evidence that the uploadmanager was an American. It frigging pisses me off, and I would've given him a piece of my mind if a mod hadn't locked the thread.

I'm NOT saying that if you're a European then you are mean to Americans, in fact, MOST of you guys treat everyone the same way. I'm just saying I'm openly mad at the users on here who fit the above statements.

(If you are going to quote my quote, please remember that it was a VENT, not a carefully put together argument.)

Most people don't fit the stereotypes of a "fat ugly american". Just chill out, you really have no reason to "lose faith" in your country. If you really expected it to be the perfect paradise with only saints from above living here, sorry to say this, but that's your problem.

[joandsarah77]

I never said we ALL hate Americans, read my post properly, I said THE VAST MAJORITY OF US do. You should have seen the protests and violence when USS Kitty Hawk stopped in Sydney a few years back.

Was that to me? Sorry I wasn't replying to you but to Miko09, but I forgot to say. Guess I'm just a lazy Aussie. :lol: Which is a joke-I'm being stereotypical. I wouldn't know about the protests, I don't watch a whole lot of news and I'm from country Queensland so I guess I'm just a yobbo. Seriously though just because people protest that doesn't mean every one of them hates American's. They may be against army/navy in general or against pollution from battle ships or maybe they are against whatever mission it was on. I've only been to Sydney a few times and don't know anybody from there, so I really can't say I know the general mindset to make any kind of judgment. I do think people from the cities think differently to those of us from the country. Which is why every few years we have the whole debate and yet another vote on day light saving. They mostly vote yes and we mostly vote no.

[VerDeTerre]

Heh - I didn't know about that, PiggyPeach - Thanks for pointing the thread out. I missed all this drama and it really gave me a belly laugh. (I'm not laughing at you, don't worry, but at the guy whose knickers were a bit too tight.)

[joandsarah77]

I just went to look at that thread and also the other posts that guy posted, seems like he sat on a pole. :lol:

[RoseCity]

I never said we ALL hate Americans, read my post properly, I said THE VAST MAJORITY OF US do. You should have seen the protests and violence when USS Kitty Hawk stopped in Sydney a few years back.

lol - Because there's such a huge difference between ALL and the VAST MAJORITY. What's left over when you subtract the VAST MAJORITY from the total population. The itsy bitsy minority?

[joandsarah77]

I don't know anyone who hates American's. Where has the idea that the VAST MAJORITY of us do? Hate is a pretty strong word. I've heard people refer to American's as "a bit crazy" but certainly not with hate.

[piggypeach]

I don't know anyone who hates American's. Where has the idea that the VAST MAJORITY of us do? Hate is a pretty strong word. I've heard people refer to American's as "a bit crazy" but certainly not with hate.

I would agree with you, except that my family once hired an Au Pair from Brazil who thought that the people here were going to be "cold", because she and her family just thought that about Americans. Not quite sure why. (Of course, she decided that her family's idea was absurd once she got to know the people in our area.)

Not really "hate", I'm with you about that, but it just seems like a negative thing to say.

[iCad]

Y'know, I've never understood the "America sucks because y'all don't have free health care!" argument. As far as I know, NO country has free health care. The citizens of those countries with universal health care just get taxed out the wazoo for it. In America, we aren't. Simple. Generally, you're expected to use that "tax break" to purchase health care yourself and your family instead of having Uncle Sam take a cut out of your paycheck to pay for it. It's not a perfect system by any means, but it does allow you the freedom to choose the insurer/health care provider to fit your specific needs rather than having a government entity do it for you. And it helps that standard employers have group policies that employees can buy into and that cut down on the cost to individuals.

Frankly, I, personally, would rather have the freedom to make my own choice about health care than to put that kind of decision into ANY government's hands, even though I don't have a regular job with a standard employer, so I have to pay a lot of money for health care for me and my family. I would RATHER do that. In all honesty, I'm not sure that I'd want to live in a country with universal health care, which is why I'm leery of the whole current situation here. I suppose I'm just too "the government better damn well keep its hand out of my wallet" for my own good. I guess that's the reason I'm a Libertarian. :) I'm all "small government = good government." I need to buy myself an island or something and live on it all by myself. It's the only way I'll ever have a government that I actually agree with. :lol:

As for the "Ugly American" stereotype...Hell, yeah, it's there, and for good reason. I travel a lot in my profession, and while I do my best to be a non-ugly American, I've seen plenty of others who are exactly that. (And, for the record, I've given them a piece of my mind, too, because that's just how I am. I'm not at all afraid to tell fellow Americans traveling abroad that they're being an ass and making ALL us Americans look like asses while they're at it.) Plus, I live in a tourist town. We're laid-back folks here, in a teeny mountain town in Colorado. Lots of us are hippies or neo-hippies, and we have a certain air about us. (And it smells a lot like patchouli or pot. Just sayin'. ;) ) So, it's easy for us locals to spot a tourist from Back East or from Texas (and we have a lot of both) because they have...Well, let's just say a certain attitude about them. VERY possibly, the attitude is more one of economics than geography, though; the tourists who come here are generally monied, and monied folks just act differently (and are generally more demanding) than folks who aren't particularly monied. But whatever the case, the attitude just doesn't jive well with ours. However, they DO fuel our local economy, so we grit our teeth...and then talk about them with each other in our Secret Local Language that they don't understand. :lol: Or, better yet, we speak to them in Secret Local Language that, to them, doesn't sound rude at all. We're passive-aggressive that way. So hey, it's not just other countries that have a problem with Ugly Americans. Certain Americans have problems with Ugly Americans as well, particularly those of us who live full-time in resort/tourist towns. :lol:

That said, we also seem to get lots of tourists from the UK, lately. Most of them, again, with money. And I have to say that many of them are just as bad as the Ugly Americans we get. So much so that we also have a word for Ugly Brits in our Secret Local Language. Can't say I've encountered any Australians here. Perhaps it's because Australians don't ski? ;) Or do you? You tell me, Aussies...

But the thing with stereotypes is that they are just that. For every American who fits the "Ugly/stupid/fat/whatever American" stereotype, there are probably at least ten Americans who don't. Just like with every other stereotype.

So I guess my point is that anyone from any country can be an asshat. Asshattery, sometimes unintentional, is part of being human, and no matter what country you come from, you're still a human being, God help you. And for every stereotype about Americans, there's a stereotype about Australians or Germans or the English or WHATEVER. So my own personal policy is this: Be a nice person and people will usually be nice to you. Be an ass, and people will be an ass right backatcha. Quid pro quo. Way of the world. Sure, there will always be cultural misunderstandings and such, but if you're a nice person in general, in my experience, it doesn't cause massive problems. And my policy also is: I don't hold any individual personally responsible for the dumbassery that the government/economic system of their country creates and/or inflicts upon the world. Dumbassery goes hand-in-hand with governments, and I don't know any individual person who has control over what the government of their country does. So...yeah, that's where I'm at. :) Works for me.

[joandsarah77]

Y'know, I've never understood the "America sucks because y'all don't have free health care!" argument. As far as I know, NO country has free health care. The citizens of those countries with universal health care just get taxed out the wazoo for it.

It's not so much the "America sucks" but the idea of not having that health care system in place scares me. You're poor so you can just go die? Live in pain? Of course we pay in our tax, but if you're poor you pay less into the Medicare system then if you are a high wage earner.http://www.ato.gov.au/youth/content.aspx?doc=/content/40811.htm is just tax, I can't find how much goes to medicare, but it comes out of that anyway. Edit: http://www.ato.gov.au/content/39655.htm This adds a bit more information.

We have private health cover companies-we belong to one. But if we couldn't afford that I would at least know I had Medicare. Not that it's perfect, far from it. Waiting lists are long and we need more Dr's and nurses out here in the country in particular. Guess many of them don't want to 'live out in the sticks'

Can't say I've encountered any Australians here. Perhaps it's because Australians don't ski? Or do you? You tell me, Aussies...
It's probably to do with how much is costs. I'd love to visit America but sadly I don't have that kind of cash. There are Aussies who ski, but many of them probably go to the Snowy Mts over here. Skiing is something I've never tried, as I've only been able to get to the Snowy Mts once and there wasn't much snow and once in England where the snow was more like sludge. Bit hard to practice when cold winter weather is -2 C which I guess is considered warm by you guys? :lol:

[iCad]

It's not so much the "America sucks" but the idea of not having that health care system in place scares me. You're poor so you can just go die?

Nah. If you're poor, there's Medicaid, which is government-funded health care offered to those below a certain income level. That level varies according to family size. (i.e., the bigger the family, the higher the income cap.) It generally pays 100%. Granted, it can be hard to find a GP that will accept Medicaid, but at the very least ALL hospitals/urgent care clinics do. In addition, many of the hospitals in the US are owned/funded by the Catholic church. In many cases, if an uninsured or under-insured person can't pay their bill, their costs are covered by the church, regardless of the person's religious beliefs. (This is one of the reasons why I still tithe the Catholic church, even though I'm no longer Catholic. I believe that those of us who are better off, financially, have a moral obligation to help those who are struggling. I just rather object to the government FORCING me to do so, is all.) Also, for the elderly, there's Medicare, which is also government-funded.

So, it isn't all "sink or swim." But, on the other hand, America WAS founded on the notion of "You come here, you work hard, you make it, and the government stays out of your hair instead of bleeding you dry." (At least, that's the ideal; the ideal and the real world don't always jive, of course.) Basically, Americans fought for independence because they were fed up with the English at the time meddling in their affairs. I think that old Yankee attitude plays into the attitude that Americans have toward health care and toward government in general. (Although it apparently doesn't stop our modern government from meddling in the affairs of others. :rolleyes: There's irony in there somewhere...) Anyway, like I said, I'd rather pay for health care myself and have complete control over the care that I get and the timing in which I get it than have the government handle things for me and deal with waiting lists and stuff like that. There are, of course, other schools of thought on the issue; I just happen to be very "Stay the hell away from me, Government!" :lol: Always have been.

We have private health cover companies-we belong to one. But if we couldn't afford that I would at least know I had Medicare.

Which is probably vaguely analogous to the system here. If you're below the income cap, there's Medicaid. (Or if you're elderly, there's Medicare.) Beyond that, many employers offer their employees health coverage, the premiums for which are relatively inexpensive and are deducted at relatively low cost from one's paycheck. Most of those policies have a deductible that has to be paid and, once that's paid, the majority of everything else is covered by the insurance policy. The current problem is that policies are becoming very expensive to employers, so fewer companies, particularly small ones, are able to offer coverage to their employees, leaving more people uninsured but above the income cap for Medicaid eligibility. Those are the people who are hurting, not the poor. Also, there are people like me who don't have a standard job and so have to buy far-more-expensive policies. That's why there's a current push for a more "universal" system; I just have my doubts about its feasibility, is all. Basically, instead of laying the burden on employers, where it's always been, the burden will be laid on an already overtaxed government structure instead. Where no infrastructure currently exists to handle the load. I fear utter disaster, personally...which is frankly why I'm very glad I pay entirely for my own coverage. :lol:

Not that it's perfect, far from it. Waiting lists are long and we need more Dr's and nurses out here in the country in particular. Guess many of them don't want to 'live out in the sticks'

As a fellow sticks-dweller...Yeah, we have that problem, too. It can be a real issue, locally, to find a GP that will take your particular insurance. IMO, I tend to think that any doctor should be required to accept any insurance that a person and, by corollary, all insurance companies should be obligated to pay any doctor, not just those with whom they have contracted or however it is that the system is set up. To me, that would be a much easier and more practical reform for the US to implement, at the very least as an interim measure. Because often, a person has insurance, but sometimes no local GP will accept it, especially in the "stickier" areas of the country, which my corner of it DEFINITELY is. :lol:

It's probably to do with how much is costs. I'd love to visit America but sadly I don't have that kind of cash.

For the same reason, I'd love to visit Australia again, but it's just not in the financial cards, at the moment. Specifically, I'd like to see the "sticks" you spoke of; I've only ever been to the big cities...

There are Aussies who ski, but many of them probably go to the Snowy Mts over here. Skiing is something I've never tried, as I've only been able to get to the Snowy Mts once and there wasn't much snow and once in England where the snow was more like sludge. Bit hard to practice when cold winter weather is -2 C which I guess is considered warm by you guys? :lol:

-2C is like 30F, I think, so...Uh, yeah. That's mild. That's spring, here. Dead of winter is like -20, which is like -30C. :lol: And that's at my elevation, not up higher on the mountain, where it can be significantly colder than that. But it's a dry cold so it doesn't feel as cold as the UK's wetter cold. But if you ever get the hankering for some real skiing, c'mon over. I live on Telluride (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telluride,_Colorado) Mountain, basically, but not on the ski slope side of it. I'm not a huge skiier, myself, but I enjoy it occasionally, on local's days when the lift tickets are (relatively) cheap. :)

[kiwi_tea]

I'm not taxed out the wazoo. My parents are very well off and are not taxed out the wazoo. And if not for universal healthcare when I was a penniless student living far from home I would be dead of scarlet fever, or at best alive but enormously in debt.

That doesn't mean I blame *Americans* for their lack of universal healthcare, though. Americans, for the most part, are innocent of their government's conduct.

[GnatGoSplat]

I only like America because I can have a relatively high standard of living here. Most Americans take it for granted, but everything is sooooo much cheaper here than almost anywhere else. Real-estate, food, fuel, electricity, taxes, all much lower here than any other place. We Americans tend to take for granted how cheap things are here. We complain about bills, taxes, and the cost of a gallon of gasoline, but what we pay is NOTHING compared to how much things cost in other countries. I've even heard Germany has a radio tax where you have to pay taxes on everything you own that receives a radio frequency! I live quite comfortably on a middle-class income, a standard of living that I know I could not afford if I were to live in Europe for example. My cushy job and standard of living are the only things keeping me here, because I really don't like the majority of Americans. There are exceptions, but for the most part I think most Americans are very ethnocentric and have back-assward views. I can understand the stereotype of the "ugly fat American", because it seems like that's what most people are like in my area. Although my judgement may be clouded because I've never lived anywhere else within America so maybe a lot of Americans in other places are not as bad as they are where I live.

[whiterider]

I can't comment on prices of stuff generally in the US, but based on discussions with American friends it seems that food at least is much pricier than it is in the Netherlands, and by extension much much pricier than it is in the UK. The exchange rates aren't favourable for the US dollar at the minute, but nonetheless, I pay 99c for a loaf of brown bread (about $1.20), and 1.19€ for a loaf of white ($1.45); while I've been told that - and I have forgotten the precise numbers - you'd pay at least $2 for a loaf of white in the US and twice that for brown.

I don't know how influenced by area that is, and I tried to compare some other prices from Walmart's online shopping site with what I buy, but I mostly buy fresh food and Walmart don't seem to have prices online for their fresh produce (incidentally they also claim that the cheapest bread they sell is $25, so I'm inclined to take the whole site with a grain of salt); so this is hardly a detailed and comprehensive analysis of the price differences between the various countries. However, if the bread example is indicative, then paying that much more for food - especially when the healthier foods are the more expensive (which seems totally nuts to me, how can microwave food be less expensive than food that's provided through the complex and expensive mechanism of pulling it off trees, chucking it in a lorry and driving it somewhere else?) - would mean that, were I to move to the US, that aspect of my quality of life would be lowered quite significantly.

That's not to say that food isn't more expensive in a few places; and incomes are certainly generally higher in the US than in many places, which offsets the impact of higher prices. I've never got the impression that the US is a cheap place to live, though.

[Gabrymato]

Hmm, I don't know. I remember when I went to NYC, the prices at the Apple Store were basically the same from the online italian one, but converted into dollars. Which means, a MacBook (they still existed back then) was priced at €999, in New York it was priced at $999. Which is a lot of difference.
Starbucks does that as well. All the prices were basically the same, despite the change of value when you change the currency.
For what concerns media, I have to say I didn't encounter a big difference between the price, for examples of DVDs/CDs/videogames. A place where this stuff is very cheap is the UK, you can find recent CDs for €4 while you'd have to pay at least €12 to get the same one in Italy.
So yeah, it depends on the type of items I guess.
But I do agree that food in the US, especially in grocery stores or 7-Elevens is cheaper.

Back on the topic, I'm from Italy and I have always wanted to move to the US since, well, middle school probably.
In the past few years I changed my mind a bit, though. I'm always complaining about Italy and its bigotry, linked to the fact that the Pope lives here and he think he's a politician so he can make statements and expect people to follow him. They do, obviously.
I think it's because, and that's something I've noticed a lot in my country, nobody trusts anybody. The criminality rate is relatively normal, still people never trust anyone besides the Pope and a few politicians. This behavior is, quite frankly, being DUMB.
Because (and I don't care if some Pope-lover here on MTS is reading this) if the Pope freaks out and calls the Police and brings people to court because some secrets have leaked from the Vatican and were allegedly sold to magazines...
What. The. Duck. :duck:
Why would there even be secrets?! It's a religion, it's supposed to make you feel good with others and yourself! It should be you and God, there shouldn't be gold-encrusted cathedrals, diamond rings on the Cardinals' fingers, Rolls-Royce to stroll them around.
And most importantly there shouldn't be secrets! It's totally not understandable to me!

And I know in the US there are a lot of bigots. They're in every country, I agree, but the US is worse. That's why I want to move to Canada. It has all the good stuff the States have, and more. The minorities are respected there, and people are civilized. They don't burn Korans, they don't beat gay teens to death, they don't think they're the greatest country in the world, and so on. They're like the people who live in Northern Europe, Scandinavian countries and the UK, the best people ever in my opinion.

[GnatGoSplat]

I stand corrected, food is cheaper in the UK, but not by that much! $25 is definitely NOT indicative of the price of a loaf of bread here! According to my wife, a loaf of whole wheat bread is around $2 or higher. She said it used to be possible to get the cheap stuff for $0.99 or $0.89, but it was higher in calories. Fresh produce is much more expensive than unhealthy stuff. Junk food is much cheaper, and if you like potatoes, they're cheap as dirt. It's probably why most lower income people in the US are all so very fat. Morbid obesity is extremely common.

I don't think I'm wrong on energy costs though. Petrol was $3.269/gallon when I filled up this morning (I still remember when it was only $0.789). I have seen an average petrol price of "132p" in the UK. Is that £1.32 per litre? If so, that comes out to about $9.26/gallon if my math is correct. Americans are already furious with gas prices and want the Federal government to step in and do something about it. I can't even imagine how angry people would be with $9.26/gallon! Someone in Sweden also told me his electric rates are about $0.22/kWh. My electric company charges $0.081/kWh.

I have no idea what income taxes are in the UK, but I do know in Denmark, it's 43-63%. My total income taxes, both federal and state combined, is about 23% of my income.

If Wikipedia is correct, VAT should be around 20% in the UK, but here I pay a total of 6.85% sales tax. At the moment, anything we buy online from out of state is completely tax-free (though some politicians wish to change this). We can also buy stuff from overseas without paying any duty on items valued $200 or less. I don't think this is the case anywhere else, because overseas bidders on my eBay junk are always asking me to declare a lower value or as gift.

Cheap real-estate is probably the biggest reason I'd never move out of the US, or even out of my area since home prices vary greatly throughout the country. Here, I can find a 3-car, 5-bedroom, 3-bath 2-story, 3000sq ft suburban home in the low $100k range. As a car guy, I appreciate a 3-car garage. I've window-shopped homes in other countries (i.e. New Zealand), and I couldn't even find a single affordable middle-class house with 3-car attached garage. Although the US is probably the only country where I could actually afford to own extra cars.

And I know in the US there are a lot of bigots. They're in every country, I agree, but the US is worse. That's why I want to move to Canada. It has all the good stuff the States have, and more. The minorities are respected there, and people are civilized. They don't burn Korans, they don't beat gay teens to death, they don't think they're the greatest country in the world, and so on. They're like the people who live in Northern Europe, Scandinavian countries and the UK, the best people ever in my opinion.

Yes, bigots and anti-gay are quite common where I live, and it's unfortunate. When I visited Canada, the people were much friendlier (and more attractive) than where I live despite the population there being 4x greater. I'd always heard the larger the city, the less friendly the people, but that wasn't the case in Canada. Most Canadians were all super friendly. I don't think I could live there because they have very lengthy and extremely cold winters, although maybe the weather is milder in Vancouver BC.
Ugh, I'm with you, I couldn't live in Italy where the pope has so much influence either, but I hate religion. My area in the US is mega-religious, and it's yet another thing I strongly dislike about the US. I'm just glad we technically have a separation of church and state, though many politicians and a good deal of Americans clearly seem like they'd prefer if we didn't.

[iCad]

And I know in the US there are a lot of bigots. They're in every country, I agree, but the US is worse. That's why I want to move to Canada. It has all the good stuff the States have, and more. The minorities are respected there, and people are civilized. They don't burn Korans, they don't beat gay teens to death, they don't think they're the greatest country in the world, and so on. They're like the people who live in Northern Europe, Scandinavian countries and the UK, the best people ever in my opinion.

The thing to remember is that America is a BIG country. And really, each region of it has its own "flavor." The people who are natives of the East coast are VERY different from natives of the West coast, for instance. And on the West coast itself, Southern Californians are much different from folks native to the Pacific Northwest. Even from state to state, even states right next door to each other, there can be HUGE differences in the attitudes of people toward various things. For instance, in Massachusetts, gay marriage is legal and there is very little bigotry against gays, whereas in the Deep South, for instance, it's still a concern. Now where I live, in a very rural area of the Mountain states that run along the beautiful Rocky Mountains, we're VERY laid back and accepting of just about anything. Marijuana is legal in the county of the state that I live in, for instance, whereas in many other places, even within my own state, it isn't. (It's only supposed to be legal for medical uses here, granted, but...Uh, yeah, it's very easily had. :lol: ) Many hippies live here (I'm one) and many gay people live here and many VERY conservative Christians live here. And guess what? We all get along with each other just fine. However, we WILL tend to piss off visitors from the densely-populated, citified Northeast because we do things slowly and don't stress about things here. Whereas they're all about stress and getting what they want RIGHT NOW. :lol: So, we aggravate them. Intentionally, sometimes. ;)

So, you really can't say "America is like this." That would be like saying "Europe is like this." Because in America, a single country, there are as many sort of sub-nations as there are in Europe as a whole. I think sometimes people from other places either forget that or never realize it in the first place. It has to do, I think, with the fact that, when the country originally formed in the early 1780s (Which isn't that long ago, by European standards), each colony really wanted to be its own country. They only agreed to become one country because in the end each state was given the authority to run things pretty much as each state saw fit. In reality, the Federal government of the US has comparatively little power. Most of the power is in the each state's individual government. This was deliberately done, and I think it contributes to the sort of "fractured" nature of the US. We're one country, as I said...but sometimes you'd never know it. :lol:

As for the taxing, at kiwi_tea, mostly: Well, I suppose the amount of "out the wazoo"ness is dependent upon the size of the country's population. For less-populated places, the bite would be less painful, sure. I fear that for the US, with something like 300,000,000 people, I believe, which I think is the 3rd-highest in the world ATM...Well, I fear the bite will be pretty darn big. If the whole thing really happens. Somehow, I kind of doubt that it will, myself.... At the very least, I think it might depend on the outcome of the 2012 elections. :lol:

Oh, and as to the price of a loaf of wheat bread? I just went grocery shopping today at Walmart. The brand of wheat bread that I buy costs $1.09. There was another brand on sale for 99 cents. $2 for a loaf of bread is utterly ridiculous, unless you're buying a fancy organic brand or something. And mind you, I live in a resort town, where prices are generally inflated compared to other areas, so I'm sure in other places bread can be had for less than what I pay.

We also pay a lot less for gas than in European countries. Right now, in my resort town, gas is about $3.79 for a gallon of the stuff, which I believe is 3.something liters. So, some things are definitely cheaper in America than they are in Europe. I distinctly recall paying about $20 (including VAT) for a Pizza Hut pizza in London a number of years back, when a Pizza Hut pizza here, at that time, cost about $8 or so. (Of course, here, we don't have VAT. Just sales tax in some states, which is usually 5% or less of the price of a product.) I also hear tell that cars are a lot less expensive to buy and, depending on where you are, real estate can be pretty cheap as well. So...Yeah.

[RoseCity]

It's so true that the US is a big place and everything varies widely depending on where you are. I live in Connecticut. The western part of the state closest to New York has a lot of extremely wealthy people and the eastern part where I live is more middle (what's left of them) class and working poor. Connecticut has gay marriage and homophobia is not much of an issue here. There is blatant segregation, for example entire towns that are almost completely white. Then there are the cities - Bridgeport, New Haven and Hartford. One thing I like a lot is that I live in a less densely populated area, but I'm 2 hrs from NYC, 2 hours from Boston, 1 hour from Providence.
Taxes are high here and the cost of living varies, but tends to be high. Because of that business has been fleeing for over 30 years. In general, the not so rich people are just trying to survive like everybody else.
One thing I always wonder about is that I constantly see in the media and on the internet, people talking about 'northeasterners' or the 'northeast' or the 'East Coast' like it's the place where all the bad in the US is concentrated. Or the place where they project all their fears, misconceptions and prejudices. When to me it feels like we're just minding our own business.

[Gabrymato]

@iCad: I didn't mean that everyone in the US is a bigot/homophobic/racist, I'm sorry if it sounded like that. What I tried to say is that there are more people like that in the States rather than Canada or Northern Europe.
I'm sure that many towns in America have a friendly population, without prejudices and which can make religion and gay-friendlyness coexist.
But friends told me that, especially in small towns in the great plains and in the South, people's mind are still filled up with discrimination against everyone who looks, acts or preaches differently.
Besides that, most of the people I met in America were very friendly and open to different people... But I was in a big city, so I should go to towns with like, 10K inhabitants. Just then I could probably grow an opinion.

[iCad]

@iCad: I didn't mean that everyone in the US is a bigot/homophobic/racist, I'm sorry if it sounded like that.

Oh, don't worry. I didn't take what you said that way at all. I just wanted to point out that America is not homogeneous in attitudes toward just about anything. In fact, it's probably the least homogenous country on the planet, with the possible exception of Russia, which also incorporates vast geographical territory that encompasses a wide variety of sub-cultures. So, attitudes vary widely in the States, across regions and across individual states. After all, you're dealing with a continent-sized country, with a population about ten times that of Canada, which is roughly equivalent in geographical size but much more sparsely populated. The single state that I live in (Colorado) is larger in size (at roughly 270,000 square kilometers) and higher in population (at about 5,000,000 people) than many European countries. :lol: So, we don't all think the same way. And we're CERTAINLY not all flag-waving "America is awesome!" in attitude. In fact, it's currently much more in vogue here to loudly announce how much America sucks while simultaneously expressing a strong desire to move to Canada. :lol:

So, I do think that many people who've never been here or who have only visited the big cities as a tourist have an odd idea of what America is really like, as a whole. I think it's a combination of Hollywood and the news that does it. For instance, you see folks like the Christian mouthpieces on the news, and people who don't know any better think, "Oh, a lot of Americans must think that way. They're all anti-gay bigots." Or whatever. But really, MOST Americans are actually for gay rights. (Although some do have a strange aversion to allowing homosexual couples to call their unions "marriage." I, frankly, have no idea what difference it makes, but apparently it makes a lot of difference to some people.) But the thing is that MOST Americans don't vote on these issues. However, the (smaller number of very vocal) people who ARE anti-gay-rights turn out to the polls in droves when such issues are put to a vote. It frustrates the hell out of me, personally. But it is what it is. Voting can be a time-consuming pain in the ass, and many people unfortunately opt out. Sad, but true.

Now, I'm not saying that there isn't bigotry in the US. Of course there is, be it anti-gay bigotry or anti-immigrant bigotry or white-supremacist bigotry, the latter of which is the most shameful thing of all, in my book. But we're like pretty much ANY other country that way. The thing is, how much of it (and what kind of it) you'll encounter in America varies widely according to where you are in the country. At the moment, the Deep South still struggles the most with such issues, but there are also pockets in the Midwest and there Plains as welll. And, along the border with Mexico, there is also a lot of anti-Mexican feeling. And in the big cities, there are gangs that are made up of various ethnicities and they all hate each other, so there's a lot of racially-motivated violence.

So, we definitely still have our issues, like pretty much every other country, particularly those that have a lot of different ethnicities living together. (Not every country has that, you know.) I just don't believe the prevailing notion out there that America is vastly more bigoted than any other country. I, myself, have been to every continent except Antarctica, and I've seen things in other countries that are way, WAY worse than ANYTHING that happens in America. And I've seen things that are just as bad as they are in America. (As one example: The terrible anti-Pakistani attitudes I saw quite a bit of in the UK during the time in the late 80s/early 90s when I was there often.) And I've been to places where things seem better than they are in America...although whether they really are better is another question; as a visitor, I probably didn't see the warts that I'm sure exist. So, I just encourage keeping an open mind about America. Don't believe everything you read, everything that others say, and CERTAINLY not everything that you see on TV.

What I tried to say is that there are more people like that in the States rather than Canada or Northern Europe. I'm sure that many towns in America have a friendly population, without prejudices and which can make religion and gay-friendlyness coexist

It depends on what you mean by "more." In a "hard numbers" sort of way, there are more people who live in America than who live in Canada and Northern Europe COMBINED. (Population of Canada: About 35,000,000. Population of Northern Europe as defined by the UN: About 100,000,000. For a total of about 135,000,000. Population of the US: About 300,000,000.) If only by that alone, there are quite obviously more people in the US who are open-minded about gay rights and such than there are in Canada and Northern Europe combined. Why? Because even if every single person in those areas supports gay rights (And I'm sure not EVERYONE personally does, regardless of what the laws of those countries have to say on the subject), those two areas combined have a total population roughly 1/3 of the total population of the US, and in the US, more than half of the population supports gay rights, according to polls. "More than half" is a larger number than 1/3, yes?

But friends told me that, especially in small towns in the great plains and in the South, people's mind are still filled up with discrimination against everyone who looks, acts or preaches differently.

As I said, attitudes vary widely, and you named two areas that, as I said, struggle with these issues. But even in those areas, not EVERYONE thinks the same way. AND it's not as if things aren't changing. For instance, I grew up in rural Indiana, which is in the Midwest, albeit only barely. I was born in 1964. When I was a child, the attitudes were, indeed, very closed-minded. But not so much anymore, I've noticed, when I've visited home, so times are obviously a-changin'. And, of course, areas like the Pacific Northwest, northern California, big stretches of the Rockies, as well as large stretches of New England are all VERY non-discriminatory against gays in particular. San Franscisco in Northern California is, of course, home to a large number of gay folks. So..Yeah, like I said, it's a question to knowing where to be...and where not to be. Which isn't at ALL surprising given that America is geographically huge, very large in population, and, on top of all that, culturally diverse.

But I was in a big city, so I should go to towns with like, 10K inhabitants. Just then I could probably grow an opinion.

I would definitely recommend that. My current hometown has a year-round permanent population of less than 2,500 people. And, like I said, we're very laid back. About just about everything. :lol: Especially for white folks. ;) Even the very conservative Christians here are very laid back, compared to some of our brethren. (I say "our" because I'm Christian and many of my views are conservative. But I have no problem with gay people or gay rights. My best friends are a Christian gay couple. :lol: ) So yeah, get out of the cities (although some big cities, like the aforementioned SanFran are VERY open-minded, too) and visit some smaller towns. Granted, some of them can be insular, depending on where they are...but some of them are the greatest places on Earth, not because they're in America, particularly, but simply because the people who've accumulated there are fabulous people. :)

[perihelion]

Was that to me? Sorry I wasn't replying to you but to Miko09, but I forgot to say. Guess I'm just a lazy Aussie. :lol: Which is a joke-I'm being stereotypical. I wouldn't know about the protests, I don't watch a whole lot of news and I'm from country Queensland so I guess I'm just a yobbo. Seriously though just because people protest that doesn't mean every one of them hates American's. They may be against army/navy in general or against pollution from battle ships or maybe they are against whatever mission it was on. I've only been to Sydney a few times and don't know anybody from there, so I really can't say I know the general mindset to make any kind of judgment. I do think people from the cities think differently to those of us from the country. Which is why every few years we have the whole debate and yet another vote on day light saving. They mostly vote yes and we mostly vote no.

Whoops, my bad.


Bloody Queenslanders. PARASITES, ALL OF YOU. :P


I jest, but some of the worst offenders are in Toowoomba. Can't really speak for country Queensland since I've spent most of my time in cities or suburbs (although I grew up, and currently live, in rural New South Wales) but if you're anything like Bob Katter and the trash who vote for him, I don't want to know you.


EDIT: No, trust me, it was an anti-American protest. The Kitty Hawk had to cancel shore leave because sailors were getting bashed.

[SeeMyu]

The only problem I have in America is where I live (Georgia).. and by that, you hopefully will understand why I hate it so much. Everywhere else seems reasonably fine to me..

[Rarr]

Have I lost my faith in America? No. Because we the people can restore the America that our founding fathers wanted. We can restore it by not sitting down and accepting the things that are being done in the US now. I'm not talking about violence, I'm talking about restoring love and honor. We are lucky enough to live in a country where we have the ability to have a say in what is being done. Think about this- Not saying anything IS saying something.

[ButchSims]

one thing to remember is, if you have lost faith in America, you should count yourself lucky that you live in a country where your voice can be heard, and that it is up to you to change what you don't like. There are still countries that censer newspapers, internet, and other media. There are still countries where women are sold as chattel. You can go to any grocery store and buy yourself food, but there are countries where people are forced to subsist on sub-par food, that is not easily accessable. Yes, there are a lot of bad things going on here, just as any other country with a comparable level of technology and first-world services. But there is a lot of good, too. Think Americans are the only group of people that have a negative impression with other countries? Not at all. There will always be some loud-mouthed jerk with a megaphone spewing bile. But because we get to take advantage of the good, it means we also have to tolerate the bad sometimes. Just be grateful that we ( as in, any country with a democratic system) can change.

[Simsica]

It's not so much the "America sucks" but the idea of not having that health care system in place scares me. You're poor so you can just go die? Live in pain?

This. OMG, never. I'd never even cross that country's border out of this fear. And it's horrible. Why do Americans pay taxes if not for this and education?

But what am I saying? My own country that used to be communist and socialist and had all of this free all the time for everyone, even the out-of-country visitors, is going down the same pit America fell through.

America... I used to love the country. It's the culture that gave me Star trek, for Pete's sake!
I don't love it anymore, but I don't hate it either. I believe that the American people is on the verge of a huge social upheaval.
Why? Anything else America is, it is still a great country with great libertarian traditions, and *those* Americans haven't fell off of the face of earth yet, even if the "ugly fat American" stereotype were based in reality. They're still there. These Americans are freedom junkies and they will do something to help their people and their country, I'm sure of it. It's only a matter of time. I only hope that they succeed once they start.

Go, freedom loving America! *does the Uni cheer* :beer:

[piggypeach]

Americans, for the most part, are innocent of their government's conduct.

...Isn't the point of a representative democracy is that we, the people, make our own decisions regarding government?

[Mistermook]

...Isn't the point of a representative democracy is that we, the people, make our own decisions regarding government?
A. The US isn't a Democracy, it's a Democratic Republic.
B. Following Citizens United, it's not really a Democratic Republic any longer either, it's a Plutocratic Republic with pretend democratic elements. It's money that controls the democratic narrative, there's really been no chance that any candidate without extreme investment could possibly take any major elected position in the US for a century or more, at least - and that was before the restrictions were removed.

[paksetti]

If something's a 49/51 split, almost half of the people in the country don't get what they want. Even if the margin is larger, there's almost nothing that every single American will agree on.

[Simsica]

I don't know if I ever saw a true democracy anywhere in this world. What would that be anyway? Whatever else we might say about it though, one thing seems certain: representative governement isn't democracy. Especially with lobbying involved. The entire enterprise gets skewed through the process of "representation" and not only on the level of the principle, since all that money is what actually gets things rolling.

No, no democracy around. There's certainly not one in my country, not in America either, not even in those mystified social democracies of the Scandinavian world. It's all play pretend, a show for the masses, panem et circenses, as always.

And you know what is the only thing that stops the current circus? If the bread runs out at one point. This is what has the potential to instill the change, possibly even destroy the so called democracy. And since only God knows what will happen instead of "democracy", I'm not really looking forward to it.
We're definitely living in interesting times... When the only thing left is hope, there's not much to hope for, right?