'Gender': Toys, Games and Sleepovers.

[Cherry_Bloom]

'Gender' Toys and Games
Not long ago my mum and her husband-to-be were talking about my brother from my mums 2nd 'relationship'.
Both me and my mother were born in Poland which is a very different country from both the US and the UK(where we now live).
My mum belived that when my brother was 1-2 the colours of his bedroom or the toys he played with did not really matter, when her fiance moved into our house he began to have conversations with my mum about some of the toys she gave to my brother.
He did not really believe that my brother who is now 4 should still have these 'controversial' toys. One thing he was really worried about was that when he was 2 and a half my brother had a 'Fifi and the Flower-Tots'(I think that's right) car, one of those that you sit on and push with your feet. Personally I do not think that this is wrong by any means because a child can have the right to play with any toys they wish.
My mums fiance stated that because of all the toys that he played he would grow up to be gay. I do not think this is right, because when I was a child I used to play with cars and do all the things boys would do (climb trees, run around demolished sites etc.) and that really would be saying that either:
A) I would grow up to be a tomboy (which I am most certainly NOT) or
B) A lesbian (which is the same sexuality issue), which again i am not.

'Gender' Sleepovers
Recently I have been asking quite a few people about boys having sleepovers.
To me I have always grown up in an enviroment were only girls had sleepovers. It was considered that if boys had sleepovers they were either gay or their parents were to blame.
I don't think that it is wrong in any way, it's just an example of how the area that I lived in was VERY judgmental and bios.
Now that I have moved to a different place I have gotten used to the fact that boys talk about sleepovers. The first time that I actually asked a guy about sleepover was yesturday and he said that yes boys do have sleepovers quite often just like girls, exept the fact that they don't really make it as 'public' as girls do.
This did not really shock me but it did make me think a lot about the 'Gender' issues we have all around the world and different peoples opinions.

I'd love to know your opinions about the 2 subjects. What do YOU think and why?

[opiumgirl]

I'm not really sure what you are asking? Just what we think feel about gender stereotyping in terms of toys and sleepovers?

I think it ridiculous to think a child will turn gay because of the toys he/she plays with or the color of their bedroom.
All children have their own preferences and surely they should play with the kinds of toys they actually enjoy?
My daughter (also 4) has cars, dolls, a push motorbike, a helicopter, my little ponies etc etc.
She doesn't even realize that some toys can be considered boy's toys.
Children sometimes do prefer to play with friends of a specific gender but I think that this is age related and goes through constant changes as children develop.

Children learn gender rolls by observing people around them so it all depends on the kind of exposure a child gets.

None of this has anything to do with sexuality.

As for sleepovers when I was a kid we used to have mixed sleepovers with both boys and girls as well as just girls. I always just assumed that boys also have boy only sleepovers, it just seemed reasonable to me. I have no idea what the case is today since my daughter is too young for that

[Robodl95]

I went to a lot of sleepovers when I younger (like 2005 onward, and I'm a boy if you were wondering). They're quite normal where I live, though they become fewer through your teenage years. I've never been to a mixed sleepover.

I don't mean to offend anybody, but these issues stem from ignorance (more on a societal level than personally) of how sexual orientation is determined.

[fraroc]

If it is confirmed that sexual orientation is genetic, then it dosen't matter what the kids like at all. In fact, someone on Yahoo Awnsers (I go there all the time) actually asked about whether The Sims 2 is appropriate for boys because it's like a "virtual dollhouse" (to me, The Sims Series is basically "Life Tycoon") and that she's worried that her son may turn out gay.
First of all, I can let certain things slide, BUT there is nothing more repugnant and repuslive than a parent that exiles their son or daughter for being a homosexual. They need to wake up to themselves and say "would I rather have a gay child or a dead child?" and if they pick "Dead child" they don't deserve to be a parent. That's all.

[paksetti]

They need to wake up to themselves and say "would I rather have a gay child or a dead child?" and if they pick "Dead child" they don't deserve to be a parent. That's all.

What. the fuck.
What does this even mean?

I think a lot of the time, people can just be clueless when it comes to "gender roles" and children- I really don't think they'd rather want their kid to be dead than play with toys that aren't "meant" for their gender. I wasn't allowed to play video games when I was a kid because my mom saw it as a "boy" thing. When I asked her why, she realized that she didn't even have a reason and I got a gameboy that year.

People can think stupid things, but for the most part I like to think that they're good people that just don't know that boys can play with barbies and girls can play with monster trucks and everyone will survive.

As for sleepovers, I don't really see how they're all that different from just going to a friend's house to play. You just spend the night.

[fraroc]

@Pare321 What I was saying was that if a parent (and this has happened too many times) Would rather have their child die than be gay, then they don't deserve to be a mother or a father.

[Mistermook]

Nah, I'm definitely not gay and I spent tons of time over at friends houses. Even when I was in my twenties it wasn't particularly weird for a bunch of us to all crash at a friend's house and end up sleeping on every possible surface even if that meant two dudes to a bed sometimes. I promise: At no point in time did I ever think "Well, now that I'm in bed with this guy I guess I better suck him off." I didn't do that because I'm not gay. There were occasionally gay men there though, and at no point in time did any one wake up and go "WTF, dude is being gay on me!" or even "Now that I've experienced gayness I must never be anything but a homosexual, *boo hoo*" When I was much younger most of my friends were female, mostly because girls seemed to read more and not want to do stupid things we weren't supposed to - and if they accepted that I wasn't the least bit interested in participating in a tea party I was fine sitting around and just being present. In any case, none of that rubbed off on me much, at least not as an impact on my sexuality. I'm not saying that it's impossible that painting your kid's room won't "turn him gay" but it's just as likely that it might turn him into a mean sonavabitch. People are complicated. Sexuality is one of the more complicated aspects of people, because it's social and involves other people.

If anyone out there really knows or figures out how to wave a magic wand and change someone's sexuality though, I think that would be worth a lot. An awful lot of my gay friends seem to wish they weren't for various reasons, and I guess those sleepovers with my friends would have been a lot more fun if we were all into dudes. But just interacting with peers and painting a room? That's bullshit, unless kids are a LOT different in Poland than elsewhere in the world.

[paksetti]

@Pare321 What I was saying was that if a parent (and this has happened too many times) Would rather have their child die than be gay, then they don't deserve to be a mother or a father.

And the sky is blue.

Sorry if I'm being a bit rude, but that just kinda came out of no where- it seems a bit extreme to lump people who are ignorant in with people who want their kids dead.

[Oaktree]

Not all homophobic parents want their gay children dead, but there are some who do. I think he was referencing those fundamentalist Christians who like to kick gay kids out of the house and disown them, and think that it would be best if the kid died on the streets. I don't think it's quite as common as it's made out to be, but it does happen.

[simbalena]

I thought fraroc meant that a gay child may attempt suicide if rejected by their parents, so that is what the parent is choosing when they reject their child.

Where I come from its normal for both boys and girls to have sleepovers and I never knew anyone considered them a girls activity. Why aren't boys supposed to sleep over at their friends house?

[opiumgirl]

I thought Fraroc meant it literally, as in some people would rather have their children dead than gay.
In the context of this topic I found it a bit strange but I have also heard people really say this IRL.
Usually it is said by rabidly religious people who also happen to be rabidly ignorant and homophobic. You get the idea.
It makes me sad but it has nothing to do with reality, it does hurt the gay person very much.

Anyway as for toys and sleepovers, they are just good fun.

I think people tend to over think and over-complicate these things
Maybe I just look at my past through pink nostalgic glasses :p but today it seems to me that there is so much more fear involved in simple social interactions.
Fear of abduction, fear of being seen as politically incorrect, fear of HIV, fear of catching the gay, etc etc.
Gay is not catching, you don't get it from your friends.

[paksetti]

In the context of this topic I found it a bit strange but I have also heard people really say this IRL.

Exactly. It's just kind of... extreme to suddenly start talking about people who want their kids to be dead. Of course they're unfit parents if they want their kids dead, no matter what the reason is. This "are sleepovers for boys?" question isn't a life and death matter. The drama is unnecessary.

Even if there are some people who do want their kids dead, they are the vast minority. Even if a parent were to have a problem with the toys a child plays with or their sexual orientation when they get older, most people will not look their child in the face and say that they want their child to die. Most people are not going to sever the bond between someone that they brought into the world. Even if they are truly repulsed by their kid, there is still a lot of love there.

I hate to just bring this up, but I speak from experience here. When I came out to my mom she wouldn't speak to me for two weeks, and things were very weird between us for a long time. At first she didn't believe me, then she just got angry for a while. It took her a long time but she came to me and told me that she loved me- she decided didn't matter if I was gay or not. (of course, that's not what she said verbatim. that was a lot longer and more blubbery.)

I guess my point is that we don't have to be so extreme. People are not all good or all bad, and you can't lump everyone who has a problem with homosexuality in to one "DEAD KIDS" group. Yes, it's wrong to hate someone for something that they have no control over, especially if you're their parent. But I have faith in people. A lot of hate comes from ignorance, and if people learn better, then people can change.



tldr; People aren't Disney Villains- you can not just paint everyone with a broad brush. People make mistakes, people change. There are a few people that will never change their mind on homosexuality- that will always hate it. But isn't it worth it to try to change someone's mind, to try to have faith in people?

[SuicidiaParasidia]

lol, im sorry, i just dont see how a toy or like-gendered group of people could turn you into something you are not if you were not already that way in the first place. ex: no amount of sumo wrestler toys, or sumo wrestler friends/parties, would ever turn me into a sumo wrestler. its simply a deeply flawed (attempt at) logic.
but then, i also cant see why having a gay child would be such a horrible crime, either. in this day and age, where we are so numerous that we cannot even provide for everybody who is already here... i think itd be nice to have more people who didnt need to breed to lead a happy life. and when it comes down to it, a parent who loves their child wouldnt care what their preference was, so long as they were happy and safe as they went about pursuing that preference. a parents role is as a guide, not a puppet master.

[SimsLover50]

I thought sleepovers for both sexes were pretty standard fare. I don't believe they will make anyone gay...

Regarding toys, I think if a child really wants a toy normally associated with the opposite gender the child should be allowed to choose what toys he or she wants to play with/own as long as the child isn't spoiled and have too many toys, where is the harm.

A child at 4 is not going to conform to rigidly defined gender stereotypes. There will be time enough for him to be presured to conform by his peers later.

[Willow's Tara]

I hate all this age, gender etc bullcrap. I don't care if I am 23 year old male, if I want to play Pokemon or Animal Crossing then I will bloody do well so and I do not need anyone's approval. If I want to watch Legally Blonde or 27 Dresses (Which I have not yet) then I don't give a crap, I am watching it (Okay fine, I only would watch it because I like Reese Witherspoon and Katherine Heigl, but I didn't mind Legally Blonde when I was a teenager). If I want to have a sleepover (Which is usually called crashing at a mate's when you are 20 and above, so I am not sure why anyone is thinking sleepover is bad, when it's just the same as crashing at a mate).

And if I want to hang out with just a girl and just as friends, then that's my business and does not mean I have the hots for her. Society is just blarg, they expect man and woman to be certain things and if they aren't, they are weirdos. Well guess what, I have Pokemon plushies, I play WoW (Okay not anymore, stupid game peeved me off badly), read Harry Potter and if I wanna cosplay any of them, (As I attempted to do with Ash but failed because I couldn't find anything good) then I will.

When I was a kid, I used to play with barbies, read The Baby Sitter's club, watched all sorts of shows that were "for girls" and I use quotations because saying a movie or food or whatever is for a girl is stupid. I even did a sleepover once with a guy friend and then some cousins too. I hung out with girls a lot in later years, high school that is. Which I used to watch shows on ABC as well. But I am clear as day, a straight male who has had crushes on many girls to prove it. Maybe I am not "manly" as many guys but I shouldn't have to be, I should be who I want and that goes for whoever else gets the crap about not being a guy or a straight male.

[KKiryu007Joker]

'Gender' Toys and Games
Not long ago my mum and her husband-to-be were talking about my brother from my mums 2nd 'relationship'.
Both me and my mother were born in Poland which is a very different country from both the US and the UK(where we now live).
My mum belived that when my brother was 1-2 the colours of his bedroom or the toys he played with did not really matter, when her fiance moved into our house he began to have conversations with my mum about some of the toys she gave to my brother.
He did not really believe that my brother who is now 4 should still have these 'controversial' toys. One thing he was really worried about was that when he was 2 and a half my brother had a 'Fifi and the Flower-Tots'(I think that's right) car, one of those that you sit on and push with your feet. Personally I do not think that this is wrong by any means because a child can have the right to play with any toys they wish.
My mums fiance stated that because of all the toys that he played he would grow up to be gay. I do not think this is right, because when I was a child I used to play with cars and do all the things boys would do (climb trees, run around demolished sites etc.) and that really would be saying that either:
A) I would grow up to be a tomboy (which I am most certainly NOT) or
B) A lesbian (which is the same sexuality issue), which again i am not.

'Gender' Sleepovers
Recently I have been asking quite a few people about boys having sleepovers.
To me I have always grown up in an enviroment were only girls had sleepovers. It was considered that if boys had sleepovers they were either gay or their parents were to blame.
I don't think that it is wrong in any way, it's just an example of how the area that I lived in was VERY judgmental and bios.
Now that I have moved to a different place I have gotten used to the fact that boys talk about sleepovers. The first time that I actually asked a guy about sleepover was yesturday and he said that yes boys do have sleepovers quite often just like girls, exept the fact that they don't really make it as 'public' as girls do.
This did not really shock me but it did make me think a lot about the 'Gender' issues we have all around the world and different peoples opinions.

I'd love to know your opinions about the 2 subjects. What do YOU think and why?

Haha straight girls have sleepovers and poor boys get thought of as gay......

[maxon]

Cherry Bloom - I think you are right and your potential step-dad sounds a bit of a nit. Please don't imagine all English people think like this.

[lipglosschaos]

I watched a really interesting "What Would You Do?" about this in which an actor child and actor father went into a toystore. The little actor boy was wearing a princess dress and playing with barbies. The father didn't seem to mind, but another actor lectured the father on making sure his son wasn't going to "grow up gay" and scolded him. The actor dad fiercely defended his son. He got a lot of support from passerby and the actor who was ridiculing his son was reprimanded by many mothers and grandmothers in the store. Surprisingly, not a single man stood up for the kid.

Then they showed the same concept, except the actor dad was trying to force a G.I. Joe into his son's hands (non-U.S. folk: G.I. Joe is a soldier action figure who is very manly). A lot fewer people intervened, but again, those who did were all female.

I just thought this was interesting. My thoughts:

-Who CARES what little kids play with? A thousand years ago children played with rocks and sticks; it's not about what the toys are, it's that children are exercising their imagination. Playing with a Barbie Dreamhouse instead of a Spiderman toy won't make your kid gay. And even if it did, would you love him/her any less? If the answer to that is "yes", you shouldn't be reproducing and bringing more hateful people into the world.
-If you are honestly concerned about gender roles, you can be assured that the kid will now have a healthy understanding about feminism, gender equality, and why boys aren't better than girls, vice/versa.

As for sleepovers, I'm sixteen and I have guy friends who still have "sleepovers". They just hang out at each other's houses; there's nothing "gay" about it.

[Pixelhate]

If you're interested in the perpetuation of a world where "Boys are doctors; Girls are Nurses. Boys are football players; girls are cheerleaders. Boys invent thing; Girls use the things boys invent. Boys fix things; Girls need things fixed. Boys are presidents; Girls are first ladies" then you certainly should take care of buying gender specific toys only

If you think that little boys and little girls have the same potential (although, they might have specific skills) and they deserve equal respect then you should buy non-gender toy. Or give gender toys to both sexes.

[5M0K3]

Haha straight girls have sleepovers and poor boys get thought of as gay...... We also get to sleep in the same bed, whereas you have to sleep on the floor. Jealous? You should be. I better it's awfully lonely and cold down there on the floor.

But seriously... I've always wondered why boys are afraid of sharing a bed with each other. It's not gay, and neither is a male-sleepover. I've noticed a lot of things girls do with each (share beds, hug, tell them they love each other, etc, etc) is suddenly gay when a guy does it.

[KKiryu007Joker]

We also get to sleep in the same bed, whereas you have to sleep on the floor. Jealous? You should be. I better it's awfully lonely and cold down there on the floor.

But seriously... I've always wondered why boys are afraid of sharing a bed with each other. It's not gay, and neither is a male-sleepover. I've noticed a lot of things girls do with each (share beds, hug, tell them they love each other, etc, etc) is suddenly gay when a guy does it.

Huh!? No actually I got the bed when I was a kid, and the other kids got the floor, like that stupid blonde hick girl Clara with the pink dress who wanted to pedo me. I don't like anybody except for my true love.... and also when I was little I played with doll houses and did some stuff people where I live consider girly, like read (which I still do).

[5M0K3]

Huh!? No actually I got the bed when I was a kid, and the other kids got the floor, like that stupid blonde hick girl Clara with the pink dress who wanted to pedo me. I don't like anybody except for my true love.... and also when I was little I played with doll houses and did some stuff people where I live consider girly, like read (which I still do). Reading isn't girly, damnit.

My mother and her sister used to put make up and girly dresses on my uncle (they are all about the same age, my mom and her brother are twins, and my aunt is one year older than them) and make him do little fashion shows for them. (he was, indeed, their bitch.) My grandfather, who's a homophobic little (or big) man, would totally freak out, saying he doesn't want his son to be a "faggot". He took away all of his girly stuff. HOWEVER, my grandmother would give him his Barbies and dresses when my grandfather wasn't around, and NOW LOOK AT MY UNCLE. He's like a friggin' chick magnet.

[opiumgirl]

yeah my friend and I used to dress-up my younger brother as Heidi (it's a swiss, show about this girl who lives in the Alps with her grandfather)
He grew up to be one of the hottest men I've ever seen and he is straight. Also he has no recollection of us making him our bitch ;)

[Jiggles]

Okay, I'm going to stick my answer strictly to the sleepover question.

When it comes to sleepovers, my situation is completely different. My friends and their parents are completely accepting of me being gay as all of our families are very close. So, my parents let me have sleepovers with girls (even though I am a guy) and guys (if there is multiple, not just one because that might make my parents think there is something romantic going on and I am too young for something that serious). I have had numerous sleepovers at my friend's who are girls' houses. So, I don't really know how to respond by saying it's wrong or right... I guess it depends on the people involved?

[5M0K3]

I've spent the night at straight boys houses before, only because they are very close friends. It doesn't really matter. Just because a girl sleeps at a boys house doesn't mean they 'got it on' or anything. Just because someone is a specific gender doesn't mean you're attracted to them. I have a lesbian friend (or had, she moved) that none of our other friends would talk to because they thought she liked them or something.

[Cherry_Bloom]

We also get to sleep in the same bed, whereas you have to sleep on the floor. Jealous? You should be. I better it's awfully lonely and cold down there on the floor.

But seriously... I've always wondered why boys are afraid of sharing a bed with each other. It's not gay, and neither is a male-sleepover. I've noticed a lot of things girls do with each (share beds, hug, tell them they love each other, etc, etc) is suddenly gay when a guy does it.

(Sorry for not replying on the post for a while)

Anyway I have noticed this too! In our school girls can freely ask other girls to come to the toilets with them, but as soon as boys do it they are considered gay. But at school guys hug and its fine, so I guess its not that bad really.
And I'm not sure who said this but I don't think all English people are like this since iv'e been here for 7 and a half year I have learnt what kind of people you all are, and that you are all different xxxx

[BlakeS5678]

Oh, when you said gender sleepovers I thought you meant it's where the two genders mix. (And, not even THAT is a horrible thing) I guess you're right Poland is a very different place. As a male I've been to a bunch of sleepovers in my childhood.

Secondly, I agree with Pare completely about homosexuality has nothing to do with what you like. But, I think the real problem is that parents say "Oh, NO! What if my son is gay!?" What the hell is wrong with being gay!? If any parent loves their child any less because of their sexuality LET THEM ROT IN HELL!!!

[Mistermook]

I don't think letting anyone "rot in hell" is particularly constructive when the real goal, the real measure of success, is changing people's attitudes. It's why wars often don't work as instruments of social change, and burning your bridges with close associates (whether they're your parents or whatever) isn't getting anyone closer to the sorts of relationships they're presumably after either. Punishing people doesn't change them. Changing people changes them. Social rules, social changes in humanity are really complicated things, but it's hardly ever a case of changing things by washing your hands of someone or beating them gets them to change (and may very well cause them to change in ways that aren't to your benefit.) That's not defending anyone mired in the past's viewpoints or anything, but just because someone has the wrong attitude doesn't excuse you from the goal of educating them to a better and more apt social awareness.

Or to put it another way, if you're changing the world you can't afford to take no prisoners. The whole world needs to be taken prisoner. The entire planet needs to be held hostage to your new viewpoint, until, when released, there is no prison.

[whiterider]

Consider this your symbolic second cookie achievement, Mistermook, because I can't be assed to make the existing one show up twice.

[BlakeS5678]

(Sorry Mistermook for being aggressive and getting carried away)

Hell-If you think about is where "bad" people go when no person can or should punish them themselves. I'm not going to go slit some homophobic parents throats if anyone's concerned, by any chance. My parents always always said you can't change anyone else by force you can only control/change yourself. I guess I'm trying to say (in a more civilized manner this time) is that I can't go and change people, we can just educate them, help them, and if all else fails, hope they change themselves.

[Mistermook]

Eh, I wasn't chewing anyone out. Sometimes people say something though, and regardless of whether I strongly or weakly disagree with what they're saying I write my opinion as a rebuttal mostly because I feel the need to present a new evaluation of my opinion as a response to someone else. I understand the urge to slit people's throats intimately, all I was saying is that even acknowledging my own emotional response isn't always the most constructive thing. Or perhaps it's because I know and acknowledge my own emotional response to certain things that I know it's not constructive. Emotions are cool when they're useful, but when they start getting in the way of what you want I find it's best to focus and seek clarity of that objective. For most people tossing all the homophobes in the world onto a pyre and lighting things up... let's just say it wouldn't be remembered as the great stride of civilized behavior it was perhaps intended as. So you route around that: How do I turn bigots into decent human beings?

Unfortunately I don't have a good answer to that. Or at least no quick answer to it.

[thomsonjamie]

Things don't make you become gay, I think it's either genetic or developed during puberty, which in my case would probably make sense as I've always got on with girls better, loved "girly" music and most of my friends are girls. But when I was younger I played football, shoot-em-up games, etc. I still do enjoy some boy-ish (?) acitivities but wether or not that's related to sexuality, I don't know. I think the two are disconnected but your sexuality can influence how you interact with other people (a lot of straight men say they don't like me because I act girly, etc.) and therefore influence your social groups (all my friends being girls) which, in my opinion can change how you act and what your tastes are in terms of fashion, hobbies etc.

I don't have sleepovers with boys, as that would be really awkward as I'm 15 and, to put it bluntly, boys turn me on. But I regularly sleep at my female friends' houses, and mine and their parents are completely fine with it.

[thomsonjamie]

(Sorry for not replying on the post for a while)

Anyway I have noticed this too! In our school girls can freely ask other girls to come to the toilets with them, but as soon as boys do it they are considered gay. But at school guys hug and its fine, so I guess its not that bad really.
And I'm not sure who said this but I don't think all English people are like this since iv'e been here for 7 and a half year I have learnt what kind of people you all are, and that you are all different xxxx

I think that most men (I'm gay so I'm just assuming :L) are afraid of looking 'gay', and although it is completely unjustifiable to insult gays for any reason in my opinion, that's why they don't do things like that. On the other hand, I sleep in the same bed as my female friends all the time but it doesn't make me 'straight' at all

[SpookyOkyBatGirl]

I'm a girl. Growing up, I played with Barbies, GI Joes, American Girl dolls, Transformers, tiny plastic horses and remote control cars. I played with both toys. Nothing's wrong with me. It's not going to turn them gay. Most of the time, it just leads to the children having a more variety of interests. Or in some cases, like my brother, when he outgrew his Hot Wheels, he also outgrew my American Girl dolls.

My mom also allowed boys and girls to come to my sleepovers. The only thing was that at X time (it changed as I grew older), we had to separate and go to bed. The girls would sleep in my room and the boys could camp in the living room with my dad. He worked the night shift and is off on weekends, so he would just do some paperwork or stuff on his computer in the living room. I've spent the night and had lesbians, gays and straight boys and girls.