job and name discrimination

[treegirl17]

So, I recently this has been getting some attention - Name Discrimination. I personally am worried about this because I had no control over my name. I honestly think that I get turned down from jobs because of my name, Sequoia Whitney "Short 3 Letter Name" that is a Turkish meaning but has nothing to do with who I am. Most people can't pronounce my name and if they do...well congrats. So, in today's Metro I wander about Freakonomics, a movie and book. Here is what Chapter 6 is based on.

" Chapter 6: Perfect Parenting, Part II, or: Would a Roshanda by Any Other Name Smell as Sweet?

In this chapter, the authors extend the discussion of parenting with an overview of more economic aspects of parental choices. Specifically, they focus upon the economic implications of children’s names, especially the overtly ethnic African-American names that have become common over the last several decades. The authors tied this issue to a larger question about contemporary black culture in the United States: is distinctive black culture merely a reflection of the economic gap between whites and blacks, or has it actively caused the gap to widen?

Using several decades of name data drawn from California birth certificate records, Levitt’s analysis revealed a number of interesting trends. The authors cite previous research that has shown that similar résumés with white and distinctively black names result in job offers being extended to the white-sounding applicant far more frequently than the black-sounding applicant. Among other things, it was determined that having a distinctively black name was linked to lower attainment and negative life outcomes in terms of employment, income, and education.

Levitt then turned to the question of how names become popular among white Americans. In addition to the general trend of increasingly unique names for white children, Levitt describes a pattern by which highly educated parents popularize obscure names, gradually compelling the names to achieve broader popularity. Finally, after a period of several years, white parents from lower socioeconomic classes adopt the names, prompting a selection of new names among highly-educated white parents, and the repetition of another cycle."

There isn't suppose to be discrimination, right? Equal Opportunity but come on? I feel that is crap because I have applied to numerous position through out Center City and find stuff on Craigslist. I don't get no responses! One time I did but I guess I couldn't swing it at Arcadia in No Libs. Sadly I also feel a hit against my name but then my address. I live in Camden. I may of had my 3 jobs but they are jobs I applied for when I never heard from the jobs I want. It must be something holding me back but I hope its not my name or my address.

[Undercovers_Agent]

Go to the police station and file a report for failure to comply with employment laws.

[Doc Doofus]

If it really worries you, when you fill out your app, just use an Anglicized spelling of your last name. People do it all the time. If it works, if you like it that way, you can make it permanent later very easily. For instance:

http://www.legalzoom.com/sem/namechangepage.html?WT.srch=1&se=google&q=marriage+name+change&refcd=GO313278s_marriage_name_change&tsacr=GO4533811927&cm_mmc_o=7BBTkwCjCWwc%20C%20WzFw%202tzETwCjCWzFw%202tzETwj4zyybzTwCjCFzyybzTw%20EzFw%20gtzETw&gclid=CMSppJ34xKQCFQJVgwodGXe1FA

What do I mean by Anglicize? Well, if your name is something like Dha, (I'm trying to imagine three letter names that might sound foreign to some Americans), then you could try changing the name on your resume to something like Sequoia Whitney Dawes and give it a shot. If it gets more responses than with Dha, then you know you're on to something.

If your name is Dha, odds are that there's no officially correct English spelling for the name, anyway, so it shouldn't be an issue of family pride. For instance, when I was a kid, all the world maps showed the capitol of China was Peking. Now they all say Beijing. The name of the city didn't change, just the spelling.

[wickedblue]

Well, technically that wouldn't be filed at the police station, it would be filed with Equal Employment Opportunity Commission but indeed, if you think you are being discriminated against because your name sounds ethnic then make a claim. That is not legal under US Law.

Unfortunately, it's hard as hell to prove unless someone in the company states they passed up your application because your name did not sound white so odds are that claim will go nowhere. I still think it's worth it though because they seem to count on the masses remaining silent so they can continue with their discrimination, untouched.

Edit to add link to the EEOC: http://www.eeoc.gov/employees/charge.cfm

[simbalena]

It's not necessarily intentional, it could be subliminal discrimination. It's impossible for a human to assess something objectively no matter how much we try.

I've been on a few interview panels and someone reading job applications needs to try to paint a picture of the applicant in their mind, that's what a resume is for. If they have any negative associations with anything on the application then they may perceive the overall applicant as not appropriate for the position. I don't see how this can be changed unless job applications are assessed by computer programs. You never know who is going to be assessing your application, one person may have a negative perception of Sequoia Dha while someone else will have a negative perception of Sarah Dawes, so there is no way of predicting the perfect job application.

I think intentional discrimination would be difficult if you haven't met the person as people's names these days don't reflect their ethnicity due to marriages, name changes, etc. My mother is white Australian but her first name is Indian and her surname is a single letter!

[HystericalParoxysm]

I've found much, MUCH better luck applying for jobs if I send out resumes using my really real legal name (which is a very English and obviously female name) than my chosen name (which most people think belongs to an Indian male). I always use my chosen name in day to day life and I've never had a job have a problem with calling me by my chosen name day to day but cutting my paychecks in my legal name. But I sure have gotten one helluva lot more callbacks if I use the legal name but change nothing else on the resume.

[treegirl17]

Well love the feed back but most of you I was talking about first names, not last. I was talking about all the Shaquanas in the world and them weird random names.

[HystericalParoxysm]

Erm, well, in my case I was talking about both first and last name. Either way the same basic issue is there, isn't it? Discrimination based on preconceived notions of what kind of person is behind the name and what the individual thinks about that sort of person's abilities as an employee - or whatever. Whether that's a conscious "eww I don't like people who are (whatever)" or a subconscious "eh I just don't like this resume and I don't know why", I dunno.

[treegirl17]

Yeah I get your point but I was just thinking bout 1st names. I would say my whole name but not sure how the board would take it and you never know who is crazy. Ha. But they name they gave is Dha. Mines is nothing like that. Lets say its water and means mr. Haha. My mom was going to name me whitney elizabeth. I would have went by Beth. I did find some sights about it and I am gonna see how it turns out. Just use Whitney.

[lauratje86]

My first name is Laura, so I assume that the lack of replies to my job applications had nothing to do with my first name! On a more serious note, as simbalena said, people reading CV's will be forming a picture of the applicant in their mind, and anything on the CV could make that picture become more negative than it would've done if the applicant had written something else. Obviously this doesn't have to be name-related, it could be a hobby, a past job or something else, but I expect that the name on the CV could make a difference. As a slight example, I have two middle names (as well as a first name and a surname, obviously) which is not hugely common in the UK. I always leave them off my CV and just use my first and last name, because I think that people are more likely to react negatively to me having two middle names (lots of middle names can equate to "posh", which I'm really not.....). I guess it's more difficult when it's your first name which may be the problem, but yeah, you could always try your middle name instead. Does anyone know if not using your full legal name on a CV is allowed?

[Sunbee]

S.W. (whatever last name is)? Names are difficult--our parents land us with something we're stuck with, and sometimes they don't think about how they'll look on a resume.
The other thing I'd say, if you haven't already done it, is to have someone else proofread your application materials. So often when we read stuff we miss a typo in favor of what we meant to say, and end up with a doubled word or other error. If there's something like that up front, like 'To Whom Whom it may concern', then that might be an easy fix. You're probably competing with eighty-bazillion other applicants and Human Resources are going for anything they can justify throwing out right away.

[fakepeeps7]

A few years ago, I couldn't even get a job scooping ice cream or baking bagels. I have a very common first name (there were eight of us in my grade in high school!). I sent out tons of resumes, but only got one or two interviews... and I didn't get any of the jobs I applied for.

My father's going through a similar thing right now. He's got a common first name and he's qualified for a number of different things... but nobody's hiring. (We suspect there's a bit of age discrimination going on, but that's another topic altogether.)

I'm sure there is such a thing as name discrimination, but when the unemployment rates are as high as they are now, there are a LOT of people looking for work. And not all of them are going to have weird first names.

[Purity4]

people reading CV's will be forming a picture of the applicant in their mind, and anything on the CV could make that picture become more negative than it would've done if the applicant had written something else. Obviously this doesn't have to be name-related, it could be a hobby, a past job or something else

Or their handwriting style, their grammar, spelling and punctuation.

[crocobaura]

Obviously this doesn't have to be name-related, it could be a hobby, a past job or something else, but I expect that the name on the CV could make a difference.


Actually I think it is more the details people put in CVs rather than their names that don't help them to get a job. Some people even forget to do a basic spell check before they send off their application. Best thing to do is to make a customised CV specifically for the job you're applying for. Don't write any unnecessary details, just the information that will show you're qualified for that job.

[Tom Duhamel]

I have recently changed position, but until then I was one of the person reviewing resumes at my workplace. I know I cannot be called a typical person, but I swear I was never looking at the name of even at references that would allow me to determine the age of the person (it would be quite easy to tell, because most people post years of school attendance). I was quickly checking if the person had the required education and if s/he did any job similar to the one s/he was applying for. I would then make two stack (those I thought were good people and those I thought weren't). It occurred more than once that my boss would turn to me, while reviewing the resumes I had accepted, and asked if I had even checked that name, but he was only doing so to make jokes on the name, he would not turn down an application because of that.

Now, on my current position, I do not see the resumes anymore, but I'm the one preparing training for the new employees. Some of them are black, yellow, green, orange, why would I care? My boss makes most of the interviews by phone, so all he could judge on is the person's accent, and I can tell you he doesn't care about that at all. In February he sent to me a Mexican that had only arrived recently and which barely spoke French (the official language here). Over the month, his French improved a lot, and he now talks about politics and such difficult conversations with me. Though he sometimes has to think about his words, he can say anything he wants, and I would help him if he couldn't find the correct word or wouldn't pronounce it correctly. He has become one of my two favorites employees, and when I have special tasks or projects which I need to put someone on, he will most often be the one I will ask first. About his name? Well, even today, I cannot pronounce it correctly (because Spanish J is difficult to pronounce for non Spanish speaker) and frankly, I don't care about it. I'm glad I helped him so much (he didn't succeed his training within the usual time, but I had a good feeling about him and decided to keep him anyway).

If any boss is reading this, please make good judgment when reviewing a resume and interviewing a candidate. A good employee is not necessarily a good looking, young, attractive person of the opposite gender.

[HystericalParoxysm]

Actually I think it is more the details people put in CVs rather than their names that don't help them to get a job. Some people even forget to do a basic spell check before they send off their application. Best thing to do is to make a customised CV specifically for the job you're applying for. Don't write any unnecessary details, just the information that will show you're qualified for that job.

I sent the same resume around - at first, in my chosen name (that sounds odd for where I was living, the southern US - and is not obviously "gendered") and then the very same resume, only with the name changed to my legal one (that is a very generic English sounding one that is obviously female) and got WAY more callbacks and such with my legal name. I know it's anecdotal, but I found it very strange that I got such a dramatically different response with the same resume, applying for the same sort of jobs, but with a different name.

[treegirl17]

A few years ago, I couldn't even get a job scooping ice cream or baking bagels. I have a very common first name (there were eight of us in my grade in high school!). I sent out tons of resumes, but only got one or two interviews... and I didn't get any of the jobs I applied for.

My father's going through a similar thing right now. He's got a common first name and he's qualified for a number of different things... but nobody's hiring. (We suspect there's a bit of age discrimination going on, but that's another topic altogether.)

I'm sure there is such a thing as name discrimination, but when the unemployment rates are as high as they are now, there are a LOT of people looking for work. And not all of them are going to have weird first names.

First thing - Love your clothes line.

I just meant your chances when you do apply for a job and could it possibly hurt you with a weird name. I am going to test it out and put my middle name on my application.

[Tom Duhamel]

I just thought of something. Maybe you think you get turned down because of your name, while it's actually something else which is wrong with your resume. Maybe you sent out hundreds of resumes at all possible place you may think of, but remember, you are not the only one doing so. When an employer posts a job, s/he might gets hundreds of resumes for that position, though s/he might only need one person. S/he is not going to read all of them, and might actually end up reviewing only two or three of them, based on his/her own criterion (which ones arrived first, which ones looked better printed, etc).

I will turn down your resume if it has pretty lines made out of drawings that look like cat paws. I will turn it down if you use a fantasy typeface (gothic, script, etc) -- use a regular typeface, like Times or Helvetica. Don't put your name in extra large black font at the top. Put your e-mail on it (at my current job, I was actually noticed by e-mail that I got the job, there were so many people hired that the manager didn't have time to call them all), but don't use an e-mail such as [email protected] If your e-mail doesn't look serious, make a new one (possibly with your ISP) which is like [email protected], which you are going to check four times a day. Don't fold your resume in four, bring it clean and shiny (if you can't give me a clean resume, how do I know you are not going to break the tools I'm going to lend you for the job?)

Basically, your resume must look clean and simple. I don't want anything fancy, just plain and simple information about who you are.

Also, if ever possible (unless the job posting said otherwise), show up in person with your resume, don't mail it or fax it. Many employers say "resume accepted by e-mail" but if they don't say not to show up, show up in person. I know you are not going to wear the same clothes on week-ends than at the job, but show up wearing clothes that are appropriate for the job. Even though the job is dirty, put on some clean clothes for that occasion, but just don't go fancy, because you want to show you are not allergic to dirt. I will always give extra attention to a candidate that shows up Monday at 8 am, because I know s/he will be at job on time. When you show up, be polite and smile, and tell the person that you meet that you are here to give your resume. You may ask to see the manager, but don't insist, you don't know about the internal politic regarding this. Even if the person you meet is a low position employee (a clerk, a secretary) remember that the person is going to tell the manager about his/her impression when s/he brings him/her your resume (I did that a lot when I was a clerk, and my manager would simply discard the resume if I had a bad impression). If you apply in a store, wait in line with the customers. You are not in such a hurry that you need to cut the line to give your resume.

Ok, I will end this post at this point. I'm sure you get my point. Yes, it might be frustrating to seek a first job (or a 10th job), sometimes it takes a while before someone calls you. You might have sent out hundreds of resume, but of that there might only be one person calling you, eventually, after weeks of waiting. Just don't despair, it's going to happen at some point. Some periods of the year are better than others (July and January are almost always bad moments), just be patient, and keep trying.

[ElementMK]

Ah, this reminds me a of a Russian girl in my 8th grade mathematics class. Her name was Veronica, but she'd always write her name as the Cryllic Вероника. Beh-po-hun-ka? It confused the hell out of the kids who checked her work, and enraged the teacher. She'd dock points as if Veronica hadn't wrote her name at all.

I was always baffled by the teacher's course of action, because we could still identify Veronica's work. She was the only Вероника in the class. Some kids mocked her for it, but my consistent ability to have crushes on Russian girls made me think it was the greatest thing ever. The teacher defended herself by saying that she wouldn't accept our work if we wrote our names in Webdings, either.

EDIT: @Tom420: Make sure to type your resume in Comic Sans to give a "free-spirited" feel.

[treegirl17]

I have recently changed position, but until then I was one of the person reviewing resumes at my workplace. I know I cannot be called a typical person, but I swear I was never looking at the name of even at references that would allow me to determine the age of the person (it would be quite easy to tell, because most people post years of school attendance). I was quickly checking if the person had the required education and if s/he did any job similar to the one s/he was applying for. I would then make two stack (those I thought were good people and those I thought weren't). It occurred more than once that my boss would turn to me, while reviewing the resumes I had accepted, and asked if I had even checked that name, but he was only doing so to make jokes on the name, he would not turn down an application because of that.

Now, on my current position, I do not see the resumes anymore, but I'm the one preparing training for the new employees. Some of them are black, yellow, green, orange, why would I care? My boss makes most of the interviews by phone, so all he could judge on is the person's accent, and I can tell you he doesn't care about that at all. In February he sent to me a Mexican that had only arrived recently and which barely spoke French (the official language here). Over the month, his French improved a lot, and he now talks about politics and such difficult conversations with me. Though he sometimes has to think about his words, he can say anything he wants, and I would help him if he couldn't find the correct word or wouldn't pronounce it correctly. He has become one of my two favorites employees, and when I have special tasks or projects which I need to put someone on, he will most often be the one I will ask first. About his name? Well, even today, I cannot pronounce it correctly (because Spanish J is difficult to pronounce for non Spanish speaker) and frankly, I don't care about it. I'm glad I helped him so much (he didn't succeed his training within the usual time, but I had a good feeling about him and decided to keep him anyway).

If any boss is reading this, please make good judgment when reviewing a resume and interviewing a candidate. A good employee is not necessarily a good looking, young, attractive person of the opposite gender.

You pronounce J with a H like Julio is Hulio. I am taking Spanish 101 and I took French and somethings are very similar.

[fakepeeps7]

The teacher sounds ignorant. Cyrillic is hardly Webdings...

[paksetti]

I honestly think name discrimination is a real thing. There are probably tons of people who would consider a "D'Neesha" to be less successful or less intelligent than a "Donna". Hell, I loathe the name Pam, but I wouldn't discard a resume just because the applicant's name was Pam. I'd just ask if it was okay to call her Pamela. hah. (I've heard it pronounced as paMELa instead of PAMela, and it's really pretty)


I'm lucky, my name isn't too common but it's not too "strange" either.

[Tom Duhamel]

EDIT: @Tom420: Make sure to type your resume in Comic Sans to give a "free-spirited" feel.

You are kidding right? Comic is a font type made for children. It's definitely not one that would make your resume look serious. Ok I happen to have some background in typography, so others might make a different opinion out of that, but I wouldn't personally see your resume as serious or professional, unless you are applying for a job in a kindergarten. I'd recommend that you stick with what you would see in an official letter, an public service bill, etc.

[Purity4]

It was so obvious that Element Leaf was joking. :giggler: Comic sans was made for comic books, not children. Sure, a lot of children read comic books, but so do adults. And yes, comic sans is overused in the wrong capacity which makes a person look uneducated and uncivilized, but that is quite well known among the masses. So yeah, it's obvious Element Lead was joking.

[jooxis]

Tom420, he is kidding.

[simbalena]

Getting off topic but it's amazing how many managers and employees do use weird fonts in their emails. Just because you can make it all fancy doesn't mean you should.

[Rectos Dominos]

I don't doubt the possibility of the of name discrimination weither it's towards ethnic names or "ordinary" names. How HP done it is one way to prove it since no way in hell an employer will admit to discrimination in any kind.

Female is the only "special interest group" I am part of (well maybe my Aspburgers count) I guess I can say I find affirmative action insulting. In satrical speaking the government is saying "since were stupid and underqualified to get a job without our help".

In all seriousness I believe in equal opportunity towards everyone no matter what race, creed, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc.

[Bailey Weggins]

I don't really believe in name discrimination. Since I've been writing tons of applications in the last weeks, I researched the internet for some advice. Which kind of application portfolio do employers prefer? If they give you both a postal adress and an e-mail adress, which way should you apply? Can your CV exeed one page? And so on. I didn't find one specific answer because each employer has their own preferences. My sister told me she once worked with a guy who threw all non-e-mail applications right into the trash without even looking at them and not caring that people had actually spend money on them although that idiot hadn't specifically stated he only accepted e-mail applications.
Obviously employers should be objective. They should care about coffee stains, wrong spelling etc. Things that matter and tell them something important about a person. There certainly are jerks who don't give somebody a shot because they don't like their name or hair color but I just have to believe that the majority of employers is fair and unprejudiced because I'm blessed with both a first and last name that nobody in Germany can spell or pronounciate.
That being said, I really tried my best with those applications and thus far, nobody has given me a negative answer :)

[treegirl17]

Maybe its my youth but why betray yourself as this calm cool an collected person when you are talkative, clumsy, or just a plain hot mess when it comes to certain jobs? I rather see that in you than have you get a job and annoy me and my employers by you breaking, dropping, and spilling stuff on yourself. Personally being professional is not being true. No you shouldn't come in cursing your head off but when the job is like my previous job, a grocery store bakery. I would rather see you in jeans and sneakers than dress pants and a shoe. I know when I start own my own business its going to be a select few who I would hire. (Yes, I know I not talking about the main point here.) I would probably hire you because your not experienced. Why? Cause I personally hate post that says EXPERIENCED only - that one word has got me in a lot of places where I could have worked. I would hire one person who is experienced, it would probably be my friend from the grocery bakery. Other than I want people who can come in and learn. That's how I started at the store. I want to give chances mostly while have my cute little bakery.

[Phoeberg]

I can easily imagine employers discriminating based on a name. I suppose everybody has names that have certain connotations for them, perhaps because they used to know somebody they intensely disliked who had that name, and everybody has names they simply don't like, so as soon as they hear those names they can't help but be reminded of those feelings. But if employers are discarding excellent applications simply because of a name then they're really only screwing themselves over in the long run...

[simbalena]

Personally being professional is not being true.

If an employer has to choose between someone who has this attitude and someone who can show they can be professional then it's obvious who is likely to get the job.

You have to show your best when applying for a job, but it doesn't mean you need to be deceptive (unless you really aren't suited to the job). You should be able to find the balance between being honest and selling yourself. An employer wants to know that you are willing to get out of your comfort zone and try hard to do well in the job. If you aren't prepared to do that at an interview it's a pretty obvious sign that you won't be willing to do it in the job.

[geallach]

My college is a very old one with a reputation for being snobbish. This is largely untrue, but those who are are not the academics, but the students! Many students in my course are not content with only having a name and surname; they will put their middle name onto everything, write their first two names in initials, throw in their mother's maiden name, anything to make their name longer and more pretentious-sounding. A number of students are also unhappy with the way their name is pronounced, and I know a few who will correct a lecturer and give their name a French sound, and who correct people every time they say it 'wrong', which is really irritating, especially when the name is clearly not supposed to be pronounced that way. It is so irritating. One of my lecturers refused to pander to this childishness, and insists on the correct pronunciation. I think it shows that there are many people, both in college and looking for jobs, who are afraid of name discrimination and feel that their own names are inadequate.

My first name is a short version of a much longer name, and some people are under the impression that my real name is just a nickname. *sigh* Obviously my parents could never be so cruel as to give me a name with only one syllable, could they? One of my teachers would always call me by the longer version, and I remember, the first few times she did it, looking behind me in front of the entire class to see who she was talking to.

I think that having a common or what is considered a 'low' name is likely to cause some people to have presuppostions about you. For the past few years, droves of little boys in my country have been called Jack, and I would say that in a few years, when you have ten Jacks in a class of fifteen or twenty boys, they will pay the price. Your name is something you have no control over, yet people are judged by them. However, I would say that it is unlikely that employers attach real significance to the name on the C.V. People you meet are more likely to judge you by your name.

However, I would say that parents have an obligation not to give their child a ridiculous name that is going to cause problems for them in a the future. Some names really are cruel. It may sound funny or precious at the time, but they will resent their parents for it. I have heard of a child whose parents called it 'Number 10 Bus' because it was conceived at the stop...This is actually true, I'm very sad to say. Just because one has the child does not give one the right to give it whatever nonsense word or term they please. It is the child who will suffer for it.