Really? I'm a female and I'm terribly anti-social. XD



Why does a game have to have goals? A simulation can still be a game.

Sims can have goals though, if the player wants them; it's just the players gets to set them.

Another anti-social female here.

I'll bet there are plenty of players who try to meet in-game goals; get a good business review so that X can get those five top rated companies, get all the vacation memories, have a dream date... Or even " keep these little pixels alive ." You can have fufilling experience without doing that, but back when I played GTA, I had a lot of fun driving around and listening to the radio, and I was still playing the game even though I was doing my own thing.

I know all the words to the Ballad of Chapped Lips Calhoun. XD

When you start splitting hairs like that, it's time to stop and ask yourself if you're defending some valid point that other people aren't getting (least common), or some vague prejudice you're avoiding examining (more common), or your ego from the Awful Outcome of Acknowledging that Your Position is Untenable (most common).

All categories are imaginary and subject to reshuffling. For some discussions there's a valid distinction to be made between a toy, a game, and sports equipment; between a game and a sport; between one type of game and another. But the finer these distinctions are, in most cases, the less useful they are. Categories by their nature are better for generalization than for precision.

And using any category in order to arrange human beings into hierarchies or cliques, or mark people for either ridicule or special privilege (as opposed to serving their needs), is innately noxious. I don't say anyone here is trying to do that - in fact I take it for granted that no one here would consciously do that - but it's something we as humans tend to do unconsciously, and which at this historical moment is being done with distinctions between gamers, so it's something to bear in mind.

My poor husband is currently having a problem with distinctions among gamers. As far as he's concerned, the points of games are a) social interactions, b) strategy, and c) mastery of mechanics. He's a little uncomfortable with my simming because it's a solo game. And yet, in between meetings of our weekly gaming group, he has a hard time getting to talk about games with other people. Sure, he can and does discuss what to do next in our various RPG campaigns with me, but I quickly get lost in the strategy and mechanical mastery elements that he delights in. I can't keep all the interactions of details in my head that he can and it merely wearies me to mentally test dozens of permutations of choice. But when he tries to discuss them on e-mail with other members of the group, they tend not to reply for various reasons; and when he tries chat rooms or newsgroups dedicated to the system he's currently playing with, he finds himself surrounded by min-maxers who take the position that mechanical mastery is the only important thing and that there's One True Build and One Optimum Party for each situation and that the game's pleasure is derived from finding that One Right Way to do things. Which is not how he likes to play, finding it rigid and lacking in spontaneity. He also finds that min-maxers are generally poor strategists (flexibility and adapting one's existing resources to one's situation being an important component) and worse companions. (Why are min/maxers so often also jackasses?) He spends an awful lot of time, therefore, trying to corral somebody, anybody, into talking about the thing he wants to talk about instead of about how he's "supposed" to build a character to meet this or that specific challenge.

So between this site and tumblr, I get a lot more social benefit from my solo game in between gaming sessions than he does from his interactive games. And that's very sad. And I'm afraid he sometimes resents it a bit.

But at least, since he's white and male, and stays away from videogame forums, nobody tries to tell him he's not a "real gamer."

You can't say the Sims 2 isn't a game. It's not like it's TurboTax, it is in fact a piece of recreational software.

I think the question was more like "is a sandbox/simulation a lesser type of game/gaming?" Of course there are goals presented within TS2, like getting a Business Rank etc. but none of them are required in order to progress. I mean, my sim could also try to make the worst business possible just to troll everyone.

I know people who mod their Skyrim games and then just wander around the villages eating in taverns and farming and stuff, just because they like the setting. Yet nobody says they aren't "true gamers" because it's still Skyrim. I have a friend who has put 100+ hours into Fallout 4, but most of that time he spent just building up the settlements. If that isn't The Sims: Apocalypse EP I don't know what is!

It's like if you were to play GTA, but never do any of the missions or fight anyone, all you did was drive around obeying all traffic laws, having a chat with passer bys, and stopping in the shops to get new clothes.

Could that be fun? Sure. Are you playing the game? Yes. Are you going to "beat the game"? No. Does it matter? Up to you. Would a "hard-core" gamer make fun of you? Probably. Do you care? Not in the least.

I was mostly just thinking out loud there. My brain is pretty set in trying to sort things into aggressive categorism. It's something I've been trying to train it not to do, but it's pretty difficult. That, and I was on painkillers when I wrote that. What I'm trying to say here is that I wasn't of completely sound mind when I wrote that. I'm not so sure I am now.

I never quite understood the min-maxers either, for example, in Pokemon. I sometimes read about competitive strategies people use for that game and I'm often left thinking that when one player has an overly-specific setup, it'd be terribly easy for the other player to throw a wrench in the whole thing with something unexpected.
Or leftovers Wobbuffet. That's always fun. I actually think it got banned because if both players sent out a Wobbuffet with leftovers, they would get locked in stalemate forever, unable to switch out. Well, at least until it was fixed.

No worries. I'm not sure any of us are of sound mind here.

Also, didn't mean to ignore Peni's excellent post there. I think tabletop RPGs are a good comparison. I suppose you could try to min-max your Sims, but what are your win conditions?
Level 10 businesses? 20 grandkids? What do you consider winning life?

My experience with RPGs is that you role-play the character. That means that you might even sometimes purposely make a bad move, because your character has flaws, or because you know something but your character doesn't. I usually play my sims that way.

Or maybe I'm the DM for the sims, I make the rules but let them direct the gameplay, and maybe they do things I didn't anticipate so I adjust, or maybe I veto their decision.

I think some people need clear "win conditions" in a game to feel comfortable. I've noticed more games going the other direction though, more sandbox-ey with multiple endings and paths (like the Bethesda/Telltale games I mentioned). You will eventually finish the game, but are you happy with how it all worked out?

I haven't read any of the responses here, so don't know what the general consensus is. But for me, I consider myself a Simmer, not a "gamer." It's not because I think "gamer" is a negative stereotype or anything like that so much as when I think of the word, I conjure someone whose main hobby (or one of them, anyway) is gaming, someone who likes/plays all sorts of games in many different formats. That isn't me. Aside from a mahjongg app on my tablet that I play when standing in line at the grocery store or waiting in a doctor's office, TS2 is the only game I play and to me it's more of an outcropping of an older hobby -- designing homes for fun -- than a game. To me, it's a more interactive form of CAD, in a sense, and drafting/home design has been a hobby of mine since before CAD existed...but CAD makes it a lot easier. (And is where my username comes from.) So, to me it's not entirely a game, although it has a game aspect, too. Really, were it "just a game," I'd probably have become bored with it long ago. So, if I have to stick a label on myself, I'll stick on the "Simmer" label, not the "gamer" one.

Insert driving on the wrong side of the road and accidentally running over passer bys and that's me. XD

I think this is a question game developers should ask themselves more these days. My answer would be that it's not a game if there is no way to "win" it. In the case of Sims 2, the player decides if and how to win: by having a Sim who lives to age 100 and owns five top businesses? By getting all the Sims in town to die young? There are thousand of possible goals. No matter how you choose to play, it takes some effort and strategy, it's not always easy, and it is actually possible to lose (fail at one's goals) as well as win, plus it's fun, so to me it's a game.

Though I like using strategy in games, and want games that are tough enough that I have to think and learn and try in order to win, I used to wish that developers would make games more accessible to people who weren't "gamer" types. I knew so many people would enjoy, say, RPGs if they could just roam around, explore, build, and not have to worry about fighting.

Now, only a few years later, things have flipped so much toward casual gaming that I wish developers would remember what a game actually is: something that requires effort, strategy in order to win. I love that Sims 2 lets players spend hours building houses, making movies, or whatever they want to do without having to win. But I wouldn't still be playing if it didn't also present plenty of challenge for me as a gamer. It's possible for games to do both. The latest versions of my favorite games (Sims, Tropico, Lord of the Rings Online!! etc. etc.) have been so dumbed down that I quickly lose interest, and that is sad and unnecessary. It's good for games to be sandboxes. That doesn't mean they have to stop being games. Sims 2 is both.

All games have the very same goal... FUN. If you achieve fun, you're totally "winning" in my opinion.

the comment was based on what I have seen/heard; and was generally speaking.
there are always exceptions.

True, but it seems as if simulation games still have goals, whether the game sets those goals or the player does. Like your typical flight simulator.

Okay, welcome to Microsoft Flight Simulator Whatever-Edition-it-is! What's my goal now? To choose an originating flight point.

Hmmm...I think I'll go with...Bob Hope Airport in Burbank, California? Oh, sure, Bob Hope gets an airport but Dee Snider doesn't! Anyway, what's my goal now? To choose an aircraft.

Okay, the usual Pipers and Cessnas are for wussballs, so let's go with...the old warhorse: The P-51 Mustang. Sweet! Now I'm in my Mustang, which is in some hangar, which is in, on or around Bob Hope Airport. What's my goal now? To run through the pre-flight checklist, I suppose.

Okay...zero the altimeter to the barometer, oil level's good, oil pressure's good, fuel's topped off, coolant's good...ignition switch is off...rudder works, elevators work, wing flaps work, ailerons work...da duh da duh da...set fuel mixture to Rich, kill the fuel shut-off valve, raise wing flaps and elevators...okay, I think that's it. What's my goal now? Probably to start the engine.

I don't think that the P-51 has a magneto-based ignition, so...screw it. Hit the ignition switch. Max the RPM...engage the propeller...okay, the engine's live, the propeller's live...wait a few minutes and let the engine warm up while I go grab a Mountain Dew and a fruit cup. Okay, I'm back. What's my goal now? To take her out of the hangar and onto the flightline without hitting anything, because I can't see jack from inside this shed.

Okay, open the throttle an inch and release the ground brakes. Okayyyyy...stop. Where's the taxiway? All right...unbrake, throttle, turn to port...stop. What's my next goal? To do more pre-flight stuff.

All right...oil pressure's steady, oil temp's steady...ambient temp's 58 Fahrenheit with a Dew Point of 41, so I don't need to de-ice the wings...what's the airfield anemometer say? Airfield wind's Northwestbound at eight knots. Transponder works, aeronautic radio works. What's my next goal? To charter a destination.

Okay, the P-51's range on full fuel (without drop tanks) is about 750 miles. I feel kind of hardcore today, so let's pick...Reno-Tahoe International Airport...Reno, Nevada. That's about 460 miles. What's my next goal? To contact Bob Hope's ATC tower and get cleared for take-off.

Okay, I have ATC's permission to use the 33 Runway...which is way the hell over there. Bastards. So what's my next goal? To get to the butt end of the 33 Runway.

Okay...flaps and elevators are still up? Cool. Lose the brakes, throttle an inch...zig-zag so I can see where the hell I'm going over this stupid nose...taxi taxi taxi...don't run over anybody...don't bump that stupid Cessna...damn it, brake. Seriously, Cessna, you need to move. Finally. Stupid rickshaw drivers in these cockpits...okay, taxi taxi taxi...come around...taxi some more, keep up the annoying zig-zag...avoid the warning sign...hard to starboard...aaannnnnd stop! What's my goal now? To get this warbird off the farkin' ground without smacking anything, including and especially the ground itself.

Right. Zero the flaps and elevators, kick that throttle to the max...heeeeere we go! Faster...faster...I'd better not run into that damned localizer again...just hit a hundred knots, there's my warning flag and flaps down, nose up! Awesome! Crabbing my ailerons to starboard to adjust for that stupid crosswind...climb, go faster, climb...bye bye, localizer and end of the runway! Climbing...altitude's 200 feet, retracting the landing gear! We are airborne! What's my goal now? Ascend to a cruise altitude of...let's say, 8,000 feet. That should be about right for a 460-mile jaunt. Secondary goal? To fly to Reno, of course!

Okay, checking my VORTAC and flight map...Reno is on Bearing 348 from my current position. Banking to port, from Bearing 033 to Bearing 348...little more...too much! Bank slightly to starboard...done. Raise the flaps just a tad...no stalling on my watch. Nearing 8,000 feet, aaaaaaaannnnnd level out. Welcome to the most boring part of flight: Cruise altitude! It looks like I still have over an hour to go before I reach Reno, too. La da, da dee da dum...there's a shifting crosswind trying to veer me off-course...adjust rudder and ailerons to starboard...no problem. Maybe I could alleviate the tedium by offing the weapon safeties and shooting at clouds. Hey, can I still look out through the back of the cockpit? Yep...tail's still there. La da dee da dum...hey, isn't it against Federal Law to fly into the air space over the White House? I wonder if this game would scramble some Air National Guard fighter jets if I did that. I bet I could take a squadron of Falcons with this Mustang. I'm such an ace. Huh. Looks like some big rainclouds ahead. Okay, this grapefruit sucks. I wonder if I still have any of those pineapple cups in the fridge. Okay, lock my joystick and I'll be right back. Hmm...no pineapple. I do have these yogurt cups...blueberry's good. I should finish that cheddar before it goes moldy. Okay, back to my computer desk so I can what the fark?!? Did I hit a downdraft or something? Get back up to 8,000 feet, damn you! The hell's wrong with you? Damn it all...Mustang's trying to give me a heart attack! Next time, I'm pausing it! Okay...back to La La Land. My mission's greatest enemy is now boredom. Do real pilots have to put up with this? Hmm hm-hmm da daaaa...man, Great Value sucks. I should stick with Dannon...real yogurt. Da daa dum da dah..."Epic Rap Battles of History! Julius Caesar! Versusss Shaka! Zuluuuuu! Begin! 'Iwisa, meet Caesar! He's a commander / Who thinks he can dance with Conan of the Savanna! / But when I go hand-to-hand with you, I go hammer'...is it just me or are those rainclouds getting bigger? Cool simulator. Oooh! What's up, VORTAC? Excellent! I'm now within the 100-mile approach range of Reno-Tahoe International! What's my next goal, at long last? Contact Reno-Tahoe's ATC.

All right...what's Reno-Tahoe's FAA code? Looking it up...RNO. Okay, pull up my transponder, enter RNO...request permission to land. All right, I'm cleared to land on the 16 Runway. What's my next goal? To line her up, bear to 016, descend and prepare for final approach.

Cool. Banking to port...little more...all right, the direction of their VOR signal's getting close to my right wing now. Bank back...more...little more...crab a little to my left...port, whatever...got it. Zero rudders, zero ailerons...raise wing flaps and elevators aaannnd descend...7,000 feet...what's Reno's elevation? Oh...4,400 feet. Okay...6,000 feet...5,000 feet...zero elevators, lower flaps, raise the nose...oooh, there's the outer approach beacon! What's my speed? 310 knots. Throttle down and reduce to...say, 225. There goes the outer approach beacon. What's my next goal? Complete final approach, get back on the ground, try not to die.

Okay, checking my ILS gauges. Localizer says...okay, rudder to port...just a tad...zero rudder! Perfect. Where's their wind sock? Ooh, PAPI lights! "Red over red, you're dead"...nose up! Glide slope agrees with PAPI. There's the butt end of the runway. Matching the glide slope...damn, PAPI's white over white! Angle down...half a hair more...matched the glide slope, red over white...good. Veering to starboard...damn, there's the wind sock! Damned crosswind! Crab to port...not so hard...get back on the flightpath...reduce throttle...ack! I forgot the landing gear! Drop the landing gear! Whew...okay, altimeter? 4,420. Air speed's under 100. Almost there, still descending...little more...little more...kill the throttle, flaps down, nose up and soft-stall this beast! Woot! The tires just barked! Okay, reverse throttle and propeller to air-brake! Okay, not too much. Inch the throttle now. Flaps up, elevators up. Good. The landing was a little rough, but by Odin, I didn't fireball. What's my goal now? Get to the 16 Taxiway, then to the fuel depot.

Okay, there are the warning lights. I see the taxiway to my port side. Turn to port, start my stupid zig-zagging again...would it have killed them to give the Mustang a glass bottom, or a nether periscope between my legs or something? Okay...turning off the flightline to the terminals. I see hangars ahead. There's the fuel depot. I can stop zig-zagging now. Slow down...little more...brake! Okay, I'm on the refuelling pad. Kill the throttle and wait. Main fuel tank's full...auxiliary fuel tanks are full...thank Heaven I don't have any drop tanks. Okay, what's my goal now? T-Hangar 02 looks like it's open. Let's park my bad-ass Mustang over there.

Release the brake and inch the throttle up...little more...slow down...brake. All right! Zero throttle, zero everything else...and...engage the fuel shut-off valve and kill that ignition switch! Okay, we're done, and I still rock! Well, that's it for the day. I wonder if Applebee's has any dinner specials going on....

So yes, simulators are (usually) not without their quests and goals. So I'd call them games in that regard too.


I'd call those valid objectives too. The Sims 2 has its self-imposed goals and choices and quandaries, like you said. "Does Mindy call Chris and go on a date with him, which would boost their Relationship and give her a bunch of Aspiration Points as long as nothing goes cock-eyed? Or does she stay home with her Execuputter and build her Charisma so she can land that job promotion tomorrow?" Decisions, decisions.

(I like the idea of your lousy troll shop. You should go for it. )


That's the joy of playing a game that doesn't have an end game and is therefore "unbeatable": You can play it pretty much forever. With beatable games, you whoop them two or three times, get bored, uninstall them and forget about them until you possibly have the urge to reinstall them five or ten years later. Nonbeatable games can entertain you for years. I must have had Darklands on my hard drive for eight years -- just transferring that hard drive from one computer to the next -- before the hard drive finally died and took Darklands with it. This was in the days before Seagate File Recovery for Windows even existed, mind you, let alone the day when I actually shelled out $99 to buy it. I wish that I knew how many times I defeated Baphomet and stopped Judgement Day with my party of German adventurers: The knight, the nun, the alchemist and some fourth guy who always got retired and replaced with someone new after I used him/her as the sacrificial lamb so that Horseman Famine (or was it Horseman War?) would permanently damage his/her stats and leave the three regulars alone. After eight years of on-and-off play, the three regulars had grown some pretty massive stats from smiting evil all over Dark Ages Germany, and they could eat an entire Sabbat's worth of witches for breakfast, then wash them down with a Satanic priest and his brimstone-stinking demonic pets. Then they'd wander to the hills near Liepzig and kill the mighty dragon if they were in the mood for it.

That was a sad day. Rest in peace, Herr Gunther von (Something), Sister Marie Cathrin and Hans Peter Wiese (or something like that).


I have no idea what any of that means, probably because I never delved any deeper into Pokémon than the cartoons. Wasn't Wobbuffet the one pokémon who hung out with Team Rocket and annoyed Jesse and James by popping up and saying his name at random? As if Meowth wasn't already bringing in the laughs....

I've met a few of those. They don't just need to win, they need to be seen to win, and their winning must therefore be validated by some externally demarcated benchmark.

I think it might have something to do with status issues.

It's a non-argument, created by younger people who like to create new words and concepts so they can understand the world. For me it's nonsense. When the video games came out years ago, we didn't have a title, we just played. Then when some people were lucky enough to find themselves into D&D, yep, they gave themselves a title, but everyone else just played games.

When the computers first came into the homes, they weren't even many games then. There were shareware demo and experiments. We started to learn to code, because they were so few games we were forced to make our own. As a girl child, I had to be strong to make sure I got a chance to get the computer magazines off the shelf. Usually grown men took up all the space and you really did have to push and shove to make sure you could purchase what you wanted. I think that's when I noticed many girls drop out of computers all together, because they weren't willing to put up with all the agro to get included.

Years of computer playing, and we became gamers, everyone playing was a gamer. When the sims 1 came out, men, women and children all played it, and we were all gamers. All of a sudden, some people are trying to create labels and make distinctions. The sims isn't a proper computer game, instead it's a toy. Some games aren't games but are visual novels.

How the heck is this now gonna work? Do I have to go to the toy store to get the sims, and look in the library for the more visual games. It's about claiming territory and leaving people out. I done this already, it's nonsense, I'm a gamer, and a simmer, I play have been playing computer games since I was 12, and no-one's been able to force me out, even though it's been tried. I now got grey hair, so maybe my tastes have changed. But it's nonsense to define things as games for the old, or young, or male or female. We are all gamers (heck, yes, even those who are just on board games) I refuse to allow people redefine my life long passion for no good reason I can currently see. I choose to define myself as a gamer, because that's my activity, and I'm a simmer, or part of the simming community. (notice, that definition doesn't actually say anything about currently playing the game) It's self-definition, not other people deciding for you, I was a gamer when I played farmville, and a gamer when I played fallout, now that I'm playing the sims I can't see what's different.

Simmer. I don't play too many other games.