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Test Subject
Original Poster
#1 Old 23rd Jun 2018 at 2:31 AM
Default Writing your own Sims 2 challenges?
I'm really intrigued by the Warwickshire Renaissance challenge [and the Royal Kingdom Challenge], but super duper overwhelmed. I decided to try and write my own version, combining challenges and definitely simplifying things; however, I've run into the issue of not knowing how to balance the challenge! I've hit some major writer's block with this project and my question/goal for this thread is this; how do you write your own challenges? How do you playtest them? Do you bring in your friends for help or keep your cards close to your chest? What do you do if you hit a research roadblock or simply don't know how to set up the challenge?
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Lab Assistant
#2 Old 23rd Jun 2018 at 5:02 AM
I've written a couple, but haven't play-tested either one, because I'm focusing on my BACC. However, I've created a lot of events and challenges for writing forums in the past, so I have a decent idea of how to keep things in check.

My best recommendation is to get other opinions and to ask for suggestions on whatever it is you're stuck on. Post it up in the Challenges sub-board here! Fresh perspectives can do wonders for this kind of work You'll get ideas you might not have come up with, and others might be able to see potential issues better than you because they haven't spent as much time with it.
Undead Molten Llama
#3 Old 23rd Jun 2018 at 10:29 AM
I don't make "challenges" so much as complex sets of rules which govern a particular neighborhood, each of which is centered around a core idea, with the main rules supporting that core idea. For instance, I decided I wanted a neighborhood sort of based on how the Amish live. That was the "core idea" and the rest of the rules -- restrictions on owning certain kinds of objects, rules regarding behavior, rules regarding relationships and procreation, rules regarding isolation from the outside world, etc. -- all grew from that. (A "working copy" of those rules -- it's changed since then -- is here, if you want to see what I mean about "complex sets of rules"...and that one's not even complete. )

I don't play the neighborhood as a "challenge" -- for example, there is no "end goal" -- so much as just a new/different way of playing. Having a bunch of different neighborhoods with a bunch of different "core ideas" and supporting rulesets that I can shift between when I need a break from playing one or the other keeps things interesting for me. With that in mind, here's a few pieces of general advice I can offer:

1) Laser in on a single and quite specific core idea, and build everything else around it. For instance, if you make your "core idea" just "I want to play a medieval game," then you have a TON of work to do in creating the rules about that because that's a huge core idea that will require, among many other things, a class structure and a massive amount of different kinds of lots, from castles to peasant hovels, let alone all the CC you'll need. By the time you've gone to the effort of creating all that, you might not be entirely enthusiastic about actually PLAYING it. OTOH, if your core idea is "I want to play a multi-lot medieval monastery based on the Rule of St. Benedict" (That's one I've done before I read the whole Rule for ideas; it was quite interesting. ) then you've narrowed the focus a lot, and it'll be easier to come up with a ruleset to govern how to create and play that monastery.

2) Bear in mind that there's "realism" and there's "how the game works, even with mods." In my experience, if you have to keep track of too many things manually or if you have strict rules governing things that can be hard to control in game -- like, for instance, strict behavior rules while also using community lots a lot, since you generally can't control how non-controllable Sims behave on community lots -- then it starts to become overwhelming. Or disappointing when your rules don't work as well as you envisioned. That feeling of overwhelmed/disappointed begins to suck the fun out of it, and then you're likely to abandon the neighborhood/challenge you worked so hard to plan. In short, don't make rules so complex that they can be hard to enact/maintain, given how the game works.

3) Also, there's "realism" and then there's "fun to play." Of course, "fun" is subjective. For me, having to keep track of things by building and maintaining massive spreadsheets is fun. For others, that'd be pure and hellish drudgery. So, if this is something you think you might share as a "challenge," bear that in mind, and the KISS ("Keep it simple, stupid) Principle tends to apply. If it's just for you, of course gear things toward what's fun for you. Generally, IMO, researched realism and accuracy (historical and otherwise) isn't as important as keeping things manageable AND fun to play.

4) Generally, when I've created a new "challenge," I create a neighborhood to test it out. I don't consider it the "real" neighborhood yet, but rather one that I can just play for a bit to see if things work like I want them to and to see if I actually enjoy playing the set of rules I've come up with. If the "challenge" is one that will require a lot of CC -- like, for instance, a certain style of clothing -- I don't gather/use that stuff yet. Rather, this is a time to modify or completely throw out rules that don't work like I envisioned or to add new ones if I come up with new ideas or if I discover a "hole" in my planning that needs to be addressed. I do all this BEFORE I go to the effort of tracking down/installing a bunch of CC or building all the lots a neighborhood will need and all that. Sometimes, depending on the complexity of the ruleset I've created, the "test neighborhood" lasts for quite a while, but I try not to get attached to it. Once I've played the "trial run" for a while and I've got the rules hammered out enough that I know if they'll work as I want AND that I'll enjoy actually playing that way, THEN I go on the CC hunt and create/build the neighborhood as it really needs to be.

I'm mostly found on (and mostly upload to) Tumblr these days because, alas, there are only 24 hours in a day.
Muh Simblr! | An index of my downloads on Tumblr.
Mad Poster
#4 Old 23rd Jun 2018 at 5:58 PM
If you're making a challenge to share, you test. Then test some more. Then test it all again. If it's complicated--like the Apocalypse challenge--recruit yourself some playtesters. Use mods to create pre-set conditions (college start founder) that take forever to play to, or weird scenarios (like trying each career for a first lift) that take a long time to occur naturally in game, AGS for different game configurations, and use backups of your neighborhood to reset the situation, and be judicious about when you save. (I playtested the Apocaborg Apocalypse Challenge version with OFB and Base Game only. That was SUCH a hard combo.)

You do all that, and maybe no one likes your idea. Maybe people play it but never give you any reports that they played it.

Of course, if you're writing rules for your own game, then it doesn't matter very much if the balance is off, as you can change it immediately you observe the problem.

What appeals to you about the challenges you like? Obviously not the extensive record keeping! The feel of the era? Can you achieve the feel you desire with cc and a few rules, and a good deal of imagination?

Pics from my game: Sunbee's Simblr Sunbee's Livejournal
"English is a marvelous edged weapon if you know how to wield it." C.J. Cherryh
Mad Poster
#5 Old 23rd Jun 2018 at 6:28 PM
Be flexible. Your first set of rules is a rough draft and you will not only run into unexpected problems with them (too easy, too hard, impossible to control, whatever), you will have Better Ideas as you playtest. That's what the playtest is for. Don't try to be perfect right out of the gate.

Ugly is in the heart of the beholder.
(My simblr isSim Media Res . Widespot,Widespot RFD: The Subhood, and Land Grant University are all available here. In case you care.)
Instructor
#6 Old 24th Jun 2018 at 5:35 AM
Many great points made by Nukk, iCad, Sunbee and Peni Griffin -- these are all wise suggestions! As they've already said, focus in on a specific idea which interests YOU, be aware of how the game works even with mods and create within that framework, keep it fun, play test and ask for help when you need it.

I would add take your time, and enjoy the process. I spent close to a year on each one of my 3 larger challenges - The Medieval Charter Challenge, The Crown of Laurels Challenge, and the By George! Regency Challenge - researching, play testing, developing and polishing - but for me that was a large part of the fun. The ROS for MCC, Besieged! New Medieval Challenge, Medieval ROS and Regency-Victorian ROS each took less time but still took months. Although I don't see my creations as "proper" challenges because for me they outline more of a play style within a certain period of history and don't really have a scoring system, I wanted other players to have the flexibility to pursue them as a challenge or a play style, or just to borrow parts of them for their own rule sets. Also, I didn't worry too much about whether other players would even be interested, I mostly created for my own entertainment and then decided to share in case anyone was, and also as a way to share how I was thinking about and playing the game.

Find all of my Challenges in MTS Sims 2 Challenges "Ye Olde" Section:
Vllygrl's By George! Regency Play Style/Challenge; Regency/Victorian ROS;
The Medieval Charter Challenge & ROS for MCC;
The Crown of Laurels Challenge; & Besieged! New Medieval Challenge & Medieval ROS.
Mad Poster
#7 Old 24th Jun 2018 at 3:39 PM
1. Easy to keep up ; Rules that make sense and are consistent.
2. ... erh, I got nothing.

To make it short. I just create rules that don't require looking at a cheatsheet or whatever that requires switching/minimizing down the game to a window of sort or whatever. And anything that lives up to the definition of a "Challenge" (I sometimes question why certain challenges uploaded to the dedicated forums get accepted that aren't challenging or have an end goal, but If I try to post a challenge that follows the same flawed points the submission gets rejected). Anyway, I create challenges that aren't too rule-sy but still has some easy-going core rules and maybe/should leave room for readers to be creative in thinking off new ones for themselves that are relevant to the theme and story of the challenge. Speaking of readers, I (personally) suggest writing the whole point of a challenge as short but concise enough as possible. There are people with short attention span or sometimes they don't like reading paragraphs of the end. It would even help If the "leave room for creativity" advantage gets utilized because challenges that are more of a guideline than a set of explicit strict rules is what makes people help easier to adjust and incorporate their own personal playstyle into the challenge. Anyway I'm probably giving bad device and indeliberately critizing challenge creators who share their challenges, because I'm speaking from my side of the perspective. I never really get around doing those popular challenges because they are darn lengthy. No offense. Oh and not to mention this probably sounds gibbrish and not english anymore :D

P.S. Sorry for my bad english.
Lab Assistant
#8 Old 25th Jun 2018 at 3:56 AM
I've only had one, the Homemaker challenge (it's up for review on here) It wasn't mine but the creator never updated it to fit with any of the expansion packs so I just kind of created my own rules and have been playing this particular challenge since like 2005
Test Subject
Original Poster
#9 Old 27th Jun 2018 at 1:38 AM
Wow, that's a lot of responses! Ha ha, I forgot how active MTS can be. It's been quite awhile.

@iCad I think I titled this thread incorrectly; a rule set is much more what I like to write, so I'm with you there. Thank you so much for all the advice! I really feel the 'fun to play' vs 'realism' thing, as that is personally something I struggle with when it comes to challenges; Warwickshire is a great example due to the treatment of female sims, which does fit the vibe the author was going for & their research, but ultimately isn't quite that fun for me to play. I deal with that sort of thing IRL enough. I'm definitely going to try the test neighborhood thing. I tried to make a neighborhood for this rule set immediately, but whoopsie daisie, the rules need a lot more ironing.

@Sunbee I actually quite like record keeping! I'm simply the type to become overwhelmed quite quickly, so it can take me awhile to understand how to play certain challenges. Part of how I go about learning new challenges for Sims 2 is writing simplified versions of them, y'know, boiling them down to the essentials.

@vllygirl Those challenges sound like fun! I've been interested in using a ROS for a challenge/neighborhood, but I can't seem to find any that fit my personal tastes; how'd you go about making your own? Was it- this may sound silly- coding intense? I've got some incredibly basic understandings of, like, Unity but not much else.

@Peni Griffin 1) I am honored to have you reply to my thread, I've seen you around MTS a lot! 2) That's a great reminder! Aaaand one I struggle with... but I'll definitely make a note of it. Trying for perfection won't make for much fun, just stress :\

@SneakyWingPhoenix I think an issue with MTS' challenge forum is that- you're quite right- creations that don't have set goals like challenges normally do make it through, and instead are just kinda, I dunno, rule sets? Maybe MTS should have a forum for just rule sets? I can see the topic dying out pretty quickly, but it'd be useful for corralling all the excess into one place! I really like your point about keeping things concise. A bit of fiddly rules at certain points- calculating end of rotation taxes, maybe?- can be some fun busywork, but flipping between the game and a rule sheet gets old quickly.
Mad Poster
#10 Old 27th Jun 2018 at 4:08 AM
I once posted a challenge that was change up from TS3 to TS2 adaptation. It was rejected because "it is too similar", but then I have to question their policies because they contradiction to past submissions of others that got accepted (e.x. somebody just posted a plain copy of TS4's to TS2 section that wasn't even suitable). There are other numerious examples that contradict to the policy of accepting challenge submission these forum has.

Though by no means I'm implying ideas for a challenge I posted were great. Most/Some were like kinda difficult to keep track now that I recall and have a second about those. I do think as long as a challenge has a clear main rule (but doesn't necessary have to have an end goal) but are flexible is what makes it great.

P.S. Sorry for my bad english.
Undead Molten Llama
#11 Old 27th Jun 2018 at 11:27 AM
Quote: Originally posted by SneakyWingPhoenix
I once posted a challenge that was change up from TS3 to TS2 adaptation. It was rejected because "it is too similar", but then I have to question their policies because they contradiction to past submissions of others that got accepted (e.x. somebody just posted a plain copy of TS4's to TS2 section that wasn't even suitable). There are other numerious examples that contradict to the policy of accepting challenge submission these forum has.


Bear this in mind: It used to be that you didn't have to submit ideas for challenges for approval. You could just post them, like any other post. For instance, long ago, I posted the Build-A-City challenge here because it wasn't here. It was a challenge originating on the Boolprop forums, which AFAIK didn't have as much traffic as the MTS forums. So, I thought I'd bring more attention to it by posting it here, too. I might have posted my own tweaks originally -- I don't remember -- but it was essentially the same challenge, just lifted from another forum (with credit, of course!). I have no idea whether or not doing that sort of thing would be accepted these days, but the thread is still there.

It was only relatively recently that the mods started curating challenges, perhaps because there was a rash of, frankly, utterly stupid challenges that were obviously not thought-out and had never been play tested and all that. Plus there were many that were very, very similar, which I suppose isn't surprising when you have pages and pages of challenges, but it's annoying for forum users to go through a bunch of challenges that are essentially the same when they're looking for one that interests them. Which I imagine is likely why you got that "too similar" response to yours. Anyway, I guess the mods decided to have some rules because MTS has always striven to have a certain level of quality rather than anything-goes like other forums, especially back like a decade ago. But to my knowledge they never removed any of the existing challenge posts...although hopefully they removed some of the really, really stupid ones. (Like, ones that had rules requiring the player to do things that would corrupt the neighborhood/game or just...well, BAD rule sets that made no sense, as if the person was completely drunk/high when they came up with them. ) So, that might explain why there are some challenges there now that might not seem to fit the rules. Those might have just existed before the rules were created and applied.

I'm mostly found on (and mostly upload to) Tumblr these days because, alas, there are only 24 hours in a day.
Muh Simblr! | An index of my downloads on Tumblr.
Mad Poster
#12 Old 27th Jun 2018 at 3:09 PM
Way fittingly, but this thread inspired to think of a new challenge of a bat. Lol, I hope that you don't mind If I hog this reply for a challenge, because I wanna see what you think (though is there a place where I can share it with others (I recall there is; Creative Corner?) before submitting it so they can help me work on it ?)

I call this "The Challenging Challenge".

Setup: Create a household of eight members and eight pets. That itself makes it challenging.

Rules:
* Close the Want&Fear and Motive/Relationship/Job/Simology panels.
* Make a living off home; No Jobs.
* Keep everything in only one huge room (including plumming) or out in the open to have elements rain down upon.
* Start a home business with a ticket machine both always running, but never off and shut down.
* Don't lock the doors.
* No electrical objects allowed (includes alarms of any kind, computers, tvs, stereos, anything of sort of entertaining), called service.
* If somebody dies from the household, move in another member/pet to fill to spot.
* Keep graves on the lot.
* Incorporate other challenges.

End goal: Think off one for yourself or whatever is of the other challenge you incorperated.

Should I add something more to it, like a rule or what ? :D

P.S. Sorry for my bad english.
Mad Poster
#13 Old 27th Jun 2018 at 5:00 PM Last edited by Peni Griffin : 27th Jun 2018 at 6:06 PM.
How do you intend to get 8 pets and 8 humaniform sims on the lot? Normal max is 8 sims and 2 pets, and bigger household mods don't work in CAS. My bigger households mod doesn't allow merging from the neighborhood screen, either; bigger households require birth in-game or invitations to move in. If the challenge can't be set up without a specific mod or cheats it needs to be mentioned in the rules.

@psychobones: Um, honored? Oooookay...I'm no different than any other poster here, you know, and you're as worthy to be talked to as anybody else! But I'll take a compliment, I guess.

Ugly is in the heart of the beholder.
(My simblr isSim Media Res . Widespot,Widespot RFD: The Subhood, and Land Grant University are all available here. In case you care.)
Undead Molten Llama
#14 Old 27th Jun 2018 at 5:56 PM
You actually CAN combine large households with bigger households mods, but you also have to set properties to suit, which is best done in the userstartup, not just have the mod. My settings in my userstartup:
uintProp maxTotalSims 50
uintProp maxTotalHumans 40
uintProp maxTotalPets 10

With that, I can combine households up to those numbers. You can use whatever numbers you like. The humans + pets number has to equal the totalSims number. That's the only limitation. Well, that and what your computer can handle, of course. I once had a commune lot with 24 human Sims, which was initially three CAS-made households. It was laggy, but it worked. So yeah, in order to have 8 sims and 8 pets on a lot as an initial household, you'd have to have bigger household mods and set your properties to allow combination of larger households.

I agree that it'd be nice to have a place to have "work-in-progress" challenges posted, for input and criticism and all that. I'm not sure if Creator Feedback would be appropriate for that sort of thing. This thread probably isn't, but...

@SneakyWingPhoenix
What would be the purpose of having everything in one room? For one thing, unless you have "no privacy" mods, no one would "use the facilities." Well, OK, I guess the really outgoing ones would spongebathe with a sink and I suppose you could use the public-style toilet stalls, but why? What would be the point? It wouldn't make things harder, just...weirder. Or more annoying. This is actually one of my gripes with the Asylum Challenge, that the lot is supposed to only have one toilet, tub or shower, etc. I don't see the point of that, and Sims peeing themselves doesn't amuse me, so I ignore that rule.

Basically, I DO like things to make the gameplay harder or just different-than-the-norm, but I don't like it when things are just more annoying, just for the sake of being annoying. I like there to be logical reasons behind the rules. Like, no electronics makes sense if you're playing an historic scenario or a "settler" scenario even in a more modern setting or an Amish-like scenario or you're playing a household of extreme Luddites, but otherwise? WHY no electronics?

Also, why a home business, specifically? Why wouldn't you allow any home-based method of making money, if you don't want to use jobs?

Generally speaking, I think a challenge needs an enjoyable-to-play stated purpose and a focus. So far, your challenge just doesn't have that. It works best if you come up with the purpose and focus first and then build rules around that. Just throwing together random rules with no logic behind them just...doesn't work for me.

I'm mostly found on (and mostly upload to) Tumblr these days because, alas, there are only 24 hours in a day.
Muh Simblr! | An index of my downloads on Tumblr.
Mad Poster
#15 Old 27th Jun 2018 at 6:05 PM Last edited by SneakyWingPhoenix : 27th Jun 2018 at 6:43 PM.
The "Dammit! Sim is shooing others from the room" I thought would be challenging. Annoying, but that's the fun part of having them get on your nerves.

@Peni_Griffin yeah I keep forgetting. Then 8 sims, two more pets. I would have split into even numbers (5 sims, 5 pets), but then I realize 5 sims aren't that much harden to maintain and micromanage than with 8.

The Theme of my challenge is hence the name, for players who got bored as they don't find the game enough challenging. There's no backstory for it, which is why you probably don't like or find it enjoyable (which is, of course, a subjective problem), but the idea of it that it lives up to the name of it. (I included it a few text below). Kind of like hunger games, it's not based on the tv show but in gameplay wise, it is a literal definition of the challenge

Without electricity, the players is then force in scenario to find new ways of taking care of the household's chores (since there's no way of hiring maid, repairman, gardener ect.) and how to keep the sims entertain in old-fashion means oppose to casual regular everyday electronics, hence why its challenging. The Home Business Venue principle has the player to learn over time to adapt to random idiots bargain into the family's house or find a solution of keeping them distracted for damage control so they make less of a chaos in the house (customers might have a tendency to overuse objects till they get messier or break).

Where do I mention I don't allow to make money off home? The Point of the challenge to encourage the player to engage in putting their own effort for sims to use any means at home (object-that-produce-money: musical instrument, pottery, fishing, painting, etc.) and forbids off-screen job has they require little-to-no grinding.

I actually probably can right now off the bat create a backstory real quick:
A refuge household that is in poverty moves into a town/region where criminals and gang mafia roam around the territory seeking for material things that they raid stuff from abandoned houses/cabin, in one of which your played family resides in (thus why in gameplay sense 'customers' happen to gather around at your home venue). The Town that the refugees inhabit is one of the dangerous places to be in the simnation, which is the reasons why everybody moved out except the dangerous elite of thugs and since the town doesn't function (no jobs, no culture, no economy, no electricity nothing), your family is on your own to make a living off what they can (selling stuff to thugs, providing any additional service to them which is what the additional revenue from the machine represents (the thugs show gratitude or whatever, or just do trading transactions)). The House is so deserted that some of the doors of it have their keys lost and locks busted, so the newly residents are stuck living in a hut that is raided a lot orvandalized. As for the pool that's next to the house, well imagine that bog of death is very steep for any person alive to escape once they get pushed or trip over to it, so thus why the victims drown.

I don't have a specialty in english and its literature form, so I think someone can create a more artistic backstory origin for it.

P.S. Sorry for my bad english.
Undead Molten Llama
#16 Old 27th Jun 2018 at 7:42 PM
Quote: Originally posted by SneakyWingPhoenix
The Theme of my challenge is hence the name, for players who got bored as they don't find enough challenges. There's no a backstory of it, which is why you probably don't like or find it enjoyable (which is, of course, a subjective problem), but the idea of it that it lives up to the name of it. Kind of like hunger games, it's not based on the tv show but in gameplay wise, it is a literal definition of the challenge


I confess that I'm completely unfamiliar with Hunger Games, but if that's your goal, then it would be a good idea to state that you're making a challenge/rule set to emulate how things are in Hunger Games. Then people could offer you feedback as to whether or not the rules make sense in that context. Meaning, that they do indeed make the gameplay like Hunger Games. Also, they could offer you other/more ideas.

Quote:
Without electricity, the players is then force in scenario to find new ways of taking care of the household's chores (since there's no way of hiring maid, repairman, gardener ect.)


That's not necessarily more challenging, though, because Sims are perfectly capable of doing those things for themselves. In fact, 1) If there's no devices/appliances requiring electricity, then there's less that's going to break. No computers, TVs, dishwashers/trash compactors, etc. Just plumbing, really, and 2) if they don't have a traditional job and if they're running a never-closed venue-style home business (which could theoretically bring in plenty of money, depending on what's on the lot, so they wouldn't necessarily have to do anything else), then they have time to do all those things for themselves, especially if the family is large because there are more hands available to do things. In my pseudo-Amish neighborhood (which has no electricity allowed except for large kitchen appliances, which I imagine are run on propane -- as they are in real Amish houses -- and juicers, since a lot of them are farmers), the lack of electricity actually makes things a little easier in this regard. In fact, except for in families where there are many babies/toddlers to take care of, I sometimes have a hard time finding enough to do for the household, because the household chores, in-game, just don't take up a realistic amount of time compared to how long the same chores take in the real world. Also, there aren't ENOUGH chores. There's no vacuuming, dusting, floor-mopping, lawn-mowing, etc., etc., etc. At least there's laundry, with CC, but even that doesn't take long enough.

About the only way that no electricity makes things harder is that, realistically, you couldn't have an electric fridge, assuming that propane-powered appliances weren't an option for whatever reason. But that's not workable in the game. Sure, there's a CC root-cellar-style "fridge" and there are other objects with fridge functions that have been made for historical games. You could use those in place of a modern electric fridge, but realistically food ought to spoil much more quickly in such a thing, so food would need to be bought/produced more often, which would indeed make things much harder. But, food spoilage when the food's in a fridge isn't a thing in the game. Food never goes bad in the fridge in TS2, only if it's left out on a counter/table. Even if you pretend that a percentage of the food has spoiled, you can only stock so much food in a fridge. (Fridge food spoilage is actually a thing I like in TS3 and that I wish existed in TS2.)

Quote:
...and how to keep the sims entertain in old-fashion means oppose to casual regular everyday electronics, hence why its challenging.


Again speaking from my experiences playing the pseudo-Amish, Sims can entertain themselves perfectly well without anything electronic, just as real people did before homes were wired for electricity. Child-age siblings will play together more, forming closer bonds in the process. More jokes will be told in the household. Serious Sims will read a lot. Pixels will wander around appreciating art, even when the "art" is a shrub that's been cloned from a sculpture. Everyone will play games together more often. (Playing catch is an extremely popular autonomous activity with my pseudo-Amish, which fits because playing baseball is very popular with real Amish folks.) This is what I really love about my pseudo-Amish, in fact, that they are much more connected to each other than they are to things. It's a lovely feeling to immerse yourself in, but it doesn't by any means make the game harder. And even if you favor Sims who pay more attention to things than to each other, there are plenty of fun items that do not require electricity, without even having to delve into CC, which adds even more options. Dart boards, for instance. Card tables. Playground equipment. The acoustic musical instruments. Painting and crafting that doesn't require electricity (The pottery wheel, the sewing machine, the toymaking bench). Sports equipment. And, of course, bubble-blowers.

Quote:
The Home Business Venue principle has the player to learn over time to adapt to random idiots bargain into the family's house or find a solution of keeping them distracted for damage control so they make less of a chaos in the house (customers might have a tendency to overuse objects till they get messier or break).


Totally subjective opinion, of course, but to me this is just plain annoying. And sort of unrealistic. I mean, what real household running a venue sort of home business wouldn't have private areas for just the residents. Like, you know, when they want to sleep?

Quote:
Where do I mention I don't allow to make money off home? The Point of the challenge to encourage the player to engage in putting their own effort for sims to use any means at home (object-that-produce-money: musical instrument, pottery, fishing, painting, etc.) and forbids off-screen job has they require little-to-no grinding.


Well, you'd said, "make money off home, no jobs" then there's the home business rule, so I guess I just interpreted that to be the way the household makes money. As I said, venue businesses can be very lucrative, so they wouldn't necessarily have to do anything else. I mean, I once had a "home business" where a small family lived in an "apartment" over a home-business laundromat that was open 24x7. It had functional washer/dryers and a few fun objects like a wall-mounted TV and a radio to which Sims danced for hours. The household never even stepped foot in the laundromat downstairs and they became very rich very quickly, even with the ticket machine set to ridiculously low prices. Needless to say, I don't do things that way anymore. Far, far too easy. (Instead, I stack a residential lot on top of a community lot and have the household living in the residential lot own the community lot below. That way, they have to go and run the business in order to make any money.)

Quote:
I actually probably can right now off the bat create a backstory real quick:
A refuge household that is in poverty moves into a town/region where criminals and gang mafia roam around the territory seeking for material things that they raid stuff from abandoned houses, in one of which your played family moves in (thus why in gameplay sense 'customers' happen to gather around at your home venue). The Town the refugees move is one of the dangerous places to be in the world, which is the reasons why everybody moved out except the dangerous elite of thugs and since the town doesn't function (no jobs, no culture, no economy, no electricity nothing), your family is on your own to make a living off what they can (selling stuff to thugs, providing any additional service to them which is what the additional revenue from the machine is (the thugs show gratitude or whatever)).


That's a start -- and is certainly a justification for no electricity -- but there are some holes. Like, why would the "thugs" pay to be on the refugees' lot? Unless you're pretending that they're not paying, I guess. Either way, it would make more sense to me if it wasn't a venue business but rather a home business where they sell stuff (and perhaps have to make or grow the stuff first, which would increase the difficulty and keep the residents occupied.) Stuff like Sun & Moon's custom crafting stations might be helpful here, since they're meant for more medieval/generally historical games and therefore don't involve electricity and the products are more old-fashioned/rustic. Using those things, you can go all the way "back" to mining for metal ore and someone working as a blacksmith to make things. Of course, then the question would arise as to why the "thugs" would buy the stuff as opposed to just taking it at gunpoint, since there's no law and no way for the refugees to fight back. The scenario might work better if it was set up that you're playing an area where the infrastructure (roads, bridges, public utilities, etc.) has been ravaged by war (or plague or whatever) but that had already been "picked clean" by the thugs, who've then left for greener pastures because they have the means to do so -- aircraft, maybe -- and there's nothing more to take and no profit to justify staying. There are, however, a few hardy people still left, and they have to struggle to to survive with what they have because they don't have the means to go anywhere else, and maybe eventually rebuild their society. If you're creative enough, you could even possibly set up some sort of barter economy if you want to ignore money altogether. (Like, one household/person might trade some food they'd grown for some clothing another person/household made.) Of course, you're treading close to the Apocalypse Challenge there, but perhaps you can add some twists to make it different enough.

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Mad Poster
#17 Old 27th Jun 2018 at 7:57 PM
What's the end state?

A challenge I submitted that no one plays has an end state of last kid gets to adult/college. Apocalypse has the end state of all careers topped. Asylum has the end state of controllable reaches LTW. Who's your Daddy has the end state of 26 pregnancies by 26 fathers. Toddler Mania has the end state of 7 toddlers grow up to child. Legacy has the end state of 10th Generation reaches adulthood. Trailer Park has 3rd Generation reaches adulthood.

I believe Warwickshire, Royal Kingdom, Test of Time all have end states of progressing to some particular era historically, according to the rulesets, and Build-a-City has the end state of restrictions completely unlocked.

So if you want to design the . . . Illegal Refuge Challenge, what's the end state? A sim born in the household (SimNation must have birthright citizenship, unlike most real countries, I guess) reaches adulthood, is Best Friends with every household member, and the household has . . . hmm . . . $50,000 per member to sponsor the others for legal immigration. Or what?

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Mad Poster
#18 Old 27th Jun 2018 at 9:53 PM Last edited by SneakyWingPhoenix : 27th Jun 2018 at 10:31 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by iCad
I confess that I'm completely unfamiliar with Hunger Games, but if that's your goal, then it would be a good idea to state that you're making a challenge/rule set to emulate how things are in Hunger Games. Then people could offer you feedback as to whether or not the rules make sense in that context. Meaning, that they do indeed make the gameplay like Hunger Games. Also, they could offer you other/more ideas.


That's not necessarily more challenging, though, because Sims are perfectly capable of doing those things for themselves. In fact, 1) If there's no devices/appliances requiring electricity, then there's less that's going to break. No computers, TVs, dishwashers/trash compactors, etc. Just plumbing, really, and 2) if they don't have a traditional job and if they're running a never-closed venue-style home business (which could theoretically bring in plenty of money, depending on what's on the lot, so they wouldn't necessarily have to do anything else), then they have time to do all those things for themselves, especially if the family is large because there are more hands available to do things. In my pseudo-Amish neighborhood (which has no electricity allowed except for large kitchen appliances, which I imagine are run on propane -- as they are in real Amish houses -- and juicers, since a lot of them are farmers), the lack of electricity actually makes things a little easier in this regard. In fact, except for in families where there are many babies/toddlers to take care of, I sometimes have a hard time finding enough to do for the household, because the household chores, in-game, just don't take up a realistic amount of time compared to how long the same chores take in the real world. Also, there aren't ENOUGH chores. There's no vacuuming, dusting, floor-mopping, lawn-mowing, etc., etc., etc. At least there's laundry, with CC, but even that doesn't take long enough.

About the only way that no electricity makes things harder is that, realistically, you couldn't have an electric fridge, assuming that propane-powered appliances weren't an option for whatever reason. But that's not workable in the game. Sure, there's a CC root-cellar-style "fridge" and there are other objects with fridge functions that have been made for historical games. You could use those in place of a modern electric fridge, but realistically food ought to spoil much more quickly in such a thing, so food would need to be bought/produced more often, which would indeed make things much harder. But, food spoilage when the food's in a fridge isn't a thing in the game. Food never goes bad in the fridge in TS2, only if it's left out on a counter/table. Even if you pretend that a percentage of the food has spoiled, you can only stock so much food in a fridge. (Fridge food spoilage is actually a thing I like in TS3 and that I wish existed in TS2.)



Again speaking from my experiences playing the pseudo-Amish, Sims can entertain themselves perfectly well without anything electronic, just as real people did before homes were wired for electricity. Child-age siblings will play together more, forming closer bonds in the process. More jokes will be told in the household. Serious Sims will read a lot. Pixels will wander around appreciating art, even when the "art" is a shrub that's been cloned from a sculpture. Everyone will play games together more often. (Playing catch is an extremely popular autonomous activity with my pseudo-Amish, which fits because playing baseball is very popular with real Amish folks.) This is what I really love about my pseudo-Amish, in fact, that they are much more connected to each other than they are to things. It's a lovely feeling to immerse yourself in, but it doesn't by any means make the game harder. And even if you favor Sims who pay more attention to things than to each other, there are plenty of fun items that do not require electricity, without even having to delve into CC, which adds even more options. Dart boards, for instance. Card tables. Playground equipment. The acoustic musical instruments. Painting and crafting that doesn't require electricity (The pottery wheel, the sewing machine, the toymaking bench). Sports equipment. And, of course, bubble-blowers.


Neither am I. Dunno why I even compared when I don't the rules and the structure of that challenge.

Fair enough.

I had played a household in that sort of conditions, but yeah I forgot to exclude fridge. But even without a refrigerator it's possible to survive (with just BG too) through purchasing a buffet table. As long as your sim have a few hundred of bucks in their pocket, they can afford food stock.

You have a point there
Quote: Originally posted by Icad
Either way, it would make more sense to me if it wasn't a venue business but rather a home business where they sell stuff (and perhaps have to make or grow the stuff first, which would increase the difficulty and keep the residents occupied.)


I guess you're right. I can't find a way to make the venue idea fitting enough, so I'll have to give up on that.

Quote: Originally posted by iCad
Totally subjective opinion, of course, but to me this is just plain annoying. And sort of unrealistic. I mean, what real household running a venue sort of home business wouldn't have private areas for just the residents. Like, you know, when they want to sleep?

Perhaps the bad guys can bargain in, use all their stuff without permission, since their in control and also take a few percentages from the families funds because they simply can? You just have to use your imagination and pretend by ignoring the fact that there's a ticket machine and that it is a venue when it meant to simulate an abandoned town with a abandoned house that have clans come in whenever they want. This start to remind me of a series I not long ago began to watch, "The Originals". The Plot of first season is about Vampires that took control over the witches town. Witches felt powerless and hopeless, since they couldn't do anything about it. Discard what I said, lol....

Quote: Originally posted by iCad
Of course, then the question would arise as to why the "thugs" would buy the stuff as opposed to just taking it at gunpoint, since there's no law and no way for the refugees to fight back. The scenario might work better if it was set up that you're playing an area where the infrastructure (roads, bridges, public utilities, etc.) has been ravaged by war (or plague or whatever) but that had already been "picked clean" by the thugs, who've then left for greener pastures because they have the means to do so -- aircraft, maybe -- and there's nothing more to take and no profit to justify staying.


Perhaps the mafia still like to follow their own law so the transaction between each other would apply as they are allies. And a few kind felt some pity so they made a deal that If the prover family shares half of their livestock to them, that will be as an exchange offer in partnership. Heck, maybe they are more talent and specialize with what they do (sewing clothing, selling fish or fresh produce) than the thugs themselves. which would justify in staying even more.

Quote: Originally posted by iCad
There are, however, a few hardy people still left, and they have to struggle to to survive with what they have because they don't have the means to go anywhere else, and maybe eventually rebuild their society. If you're creative enough, you could even possibly set up some sort of barter economy if you want to ignore money altogether. (Like, one household/person might trade some food they'd grown for some clothing another person/household made.) Of course, you're treading close to the Apocalypse Challenge there, but perhaps you can add some twists to make it different enough.

That's a good idea, maybe there can be other residents that are known as the mafia and would open their own businesses which would simulate the trading experience in vanilla gameplay where they trade between clans and the prover family.

P.S. Sorry for my bad english.
Mad Poster
#19 Old 27th Jun 2018 at 10:37 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Sunbee
. . . Illegal Refuge Challenge, what's the end state? $50,000 per member to sponsor the others for legal immigration. Or what?

I'd say let's leave it at that because I can't think of anything else other than affording (constructing from scraps?) a helicopter so they can get their buttocks out of that stranded land to a much wealthy or better place.

P.S. Sorry for my bad english.
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