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Mad Poster
Original Poster
#1 Old 12th Apr 2019 at 1:31 PM
Murder is legal. It's just called abortion.

"Fear not little flock, for it hath pleased your Father to give you a kingdom". Luke 12:32 Chris Hatch's family friendly files archived on SFS: http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=603534 . Bulbizarre's website: https://archiveofourown.org/users/C...CoveredPortals/
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Top Secret Researcher
#2 Old 12th Apr 2019 at 2:01 PM Last edited by Pideli : 12th Apr 2019 at 2:12 PM.
JDacapo Please give your source about planned Parenthood. I read the first thing that came up when I googled "planned Parenthood racist" but I agreed with their response.

frogz2007, smorbie1, you do know planned Parenthood do so much more than just abortions right? If you make abortions illegal, all that's going to happen is that there will be more back alley abortions that are very dangerous.

There is nothing convenient about abortion. It's a very traumatic experience for most women. Women who do it are desperate. If you are going to force someone to have a baby that they don't want, you should also care about what happens to it afterwards. Otherwise you're not really "pro-life", you're just really anti-choice. I don't see many pro-life people adopting kids or otherwise doing anything to try helping the situation for these mothers and kids after birth.

If abortion is murder, masturbation is mass murder.

Omnia - Fantasy / Mythological / Medieval Hood
Ephemera MoreColorful - SimpleSkin Recolors
Mad Poster
#3 Old 12th Apr 2019 at 4:14 PM
Masturbation is not murder - gametes are not people yet. Eggs and sperm are not people until merged. And there are many people who try to help women who have given birth to unwanted babies - they do adopt, and there are millions of families who want to adopt but have to wait a super long time. As for back-alley abortions, I hope that we can change enough hearts to where abortion is not just illegal, but also unthinkable.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#4 Old 12th Apr 2019 at 5:25 PM
[QUOTE=Pideli]JDacapo Please give your source about planned Parenthood. I read the first thing that came up when I googled "planned Parenthood racist" but I agreed with their response.

frogz2007, smorbie1, you do know planned Parenthood do so much more than just abortions right? If you make abortions illegal, all that's going to happen is that there will be more back alley abortions that are very dangerous.

There is nothing convenient about abortion. It's a very traumatic experience for most women. Women who do it are desperate. If you are going to force someone to have a baby that they don't want, you should also care about what happens to it afterwards. Otherwise you're not really "pro-life", you're just really anti-choice. I don't see many pro-life people adopting kids or otherwise doing anything to try helping the situation for these mothers and kids after birth.

If abortion is murder, masturbation is mass murder.[/QU

Masterbation is not a fertilized egg. Also, there are long lists of people who want to adopt babies. Infants are not going wanting for homes.

"Fear not little flock, for it hath pleased your Father to give you a kingdom". Luke 12:32 Chris Hatch's family friendly files archived on SFS: http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=603534 . Bulbizarre's website: https://archiveofourown.org/users/C...CoveredPortals/
Top Secret Researcher
#5 Old 12th Apr 2019 at 6:16 PM
Quote: Originally posted by JDacapo
And there are many people who try to help women who have given birth to unwanted babies - they do adopt, and there are millions of families who want to adopt but have to wait a super long time.

Quote: Originally posted by smorbie1
Also, there are long lists of people who want to adopt babies. Infants are not going wanting for homes.

Exactly. So why not adopt kids instead of forcing women to have babies they don't want, when there already are so many other children waiting to be adopted?
And why are pro-life people protesting Planned Parenthood if they don't want more abortions? Like I said, the vast majority of their services aren't abortions. One of them is birth control. Why would you take away birth control if you don't want abortions? Less birth control = more unwanted pregnancies = more abortions.

Quote: Originally posted by JDacapo
As for back-alley abortions, I hope that we can change enough hearts to where abortion is not just illegal, but also unthinkable.

I don't see that happening... ever. People are always going to make mistakes. Or get raped. Or have fetuses with severe birth defects. Like I said, women who abort are desperate. That is the very last resort. Taking that away is simply cruel, and for what gain? The vast majority of abortions are in the beginning of pregnancy, when the fetus doesn't even have a consciousness. They couldn't possibly suffer from it. Instead you are making the women (and potentially the born babies too) suffer if you take away that right. Abortion is bad, but it's the lesser of the evils. And it's not like we need more births. Especially with overpopulation in a world with a changing climate and limited resources.


Also, you didn't give your source for the Planned Parenthood being racist, so I'm just going to dismiss that completely.

Quote: Originally posted by smorbie1
Masterbation is not a fertilized egg.

Quote: Originally posted by JDacapo
Masturbation is not murder - gametes are not people yet. Eggs and sperm are not people until merged.

And fertilized eggs are not babies. They're embryos. Abortion is not murder. So your point is?

Omnia - Fantasy / Mythological / Medieval Hood
Ephemera MoreColorful - SimpleSkin Recolors
Top Secret Researcher
#6 Old 12th Apr 2019 at 6:47 PM
I thought of a fun thought-experiment for all you pro-life people:

A burning house has a newborn baby in it and one tank with 1000 fertilized human eggs.
There's not enough time to save both, you can only save one. Which one do you save?

Omnia - Fantasy / Mythological / Medieval Hood
Ephemera MoreColorful - SimpleSkin Recolors
Mad Poster
#7 Old 12th Apr 2019 at 7:09 PM
I save the baby - it's not that I wouldn't want to save the fertilized eggs, but I save the one that has the best chance of surviving, and would suffer pain if I didn't rescue it. It doesn't even mean the fertilized eggs are less important or less human than the baby. Even if I were to be able to rescue the fertilized eggs, there's a chance they could get damaged - which is more likely than the baby.
Top Secret Researcher
#8 Old 12th Apr 2019 at 10:13 PM
Quote: Originally posted by JDacapo
I save the baby - it's not that I wouldn't want to save the fertilized eggs, but I save the one that has the best chance of surviving, and would suffer pain if I didn't rescue it. It doesn't even mean the fertilized eggs are less important or less human than the baby. Even if I were to be able to rescue the fertilized eggs, there's a chance they could get damaged - which is more likely than the baby.

So embryos wouldn't suffer pain? Are you admitting that? In that case, good. So what is the problem with abortion then?
Let's complicate this further - let's say the baby has a birth defect that means it will only live 5 years.
The embryos, however, are all healthy and are planned to all be inseminated into women. Giving a potential of many lives.
Who do you save in this case?
The potential for many healthy lives, or the actual life, but that will only last 5 years?

Quote: Originally posted by frogz2007
LOL I won't be talking with this fool anymore. He lives in Sweden, which is known for their so-called "progressive" ideologies.. More like regressive, if anything. I don't take leftists seriously as it is, but learning that bit of info about you just makes you lose all credibility, at least in my eyes!

Aaaand there the debate was lost. When the ad homs start rolling in, that's when you know you've made someone speechless. Thanks for letting me know that, honey.

And thanks for letting everyone here know you'd judge someone based on where they're from.
I don't know where you're from, but say you're from USA, that must mean you're a redneck married to your brother. Because all Americans are like that obviously. By your logic, it seems.

Not that it's in any way relevant here, but I'm actually right-leaning in my political beliefs and I agree with your assessment of Sweden. I'm not dogmatic about it though, like you seem to be. I'm not going to dismiss a viewpoint just because it comes from the left. If it makes sense, it makes sense. You can't possibly assess my political beliefs based on this one belief about abortion.

I actually manage to piss off both leftists and right-wingers with my views. That's a feat. :3

Omnia - Fantasy / Mythological / Medieval Hood
Ephemera MoreColorful - SimpleSkin Recolors
Top Secret Researcher
#9 Old 12th Apr 2019 at 10:37 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Gargoyle Cat
When did the Vent thread become the Debate thread?

I believe, when someone decided it was a good idea to start talking about abortion. Of course people are going to have strong views about it either way. I'm happy to move over to another thread if needed.

Omnia - Fantasy / Mythological / Medieval Hood
Ephemera MoreColorful - SimpleSkin Recolors
Mad Poster
#10 Old 13th Apr 2019 at 1:59 AM
Quote: Originally posted by frogz2007
LOL I won't be talking with this fool anymore. He lives in Sweden, which is known for their so-called "progressive" ideologies.. More like regressive, if anything. I don't take leftists seriously as it is, but learning that bit of info about you just makes you lose all credibility, at least in my eyes!


While I do agree with your general right beliefs, I think this was not called for. It would've been probably better to joke about this with me in a private message or on Google Hangouts. I'm GreatTitMouseMusic (at) gmail (dot) com.
Test Subject
#11 Old 13th Apr 2019 at 2:35 AM
Why does no one talk about just not doing what it takes to cause unwanted pregnancies? Stop sleeping around. Yeah obviously that's painting with a broad brush and some cases will be far more complicated, but I'll bet ya anything most women bring the situation upon themselves because OMG-sexual-liberation and OMG-it's-2019-I'll-do-whatever-the-hell-I-want. People are gonna cling onto that crap until the end of time because what's the alternative? Not thinking about yourself for once? May God strike me dead for such thinking.
Top Secret Researcher
#12 Old 13th Apr 2019 at 3:39 AM
Because it's more realistic to talk about birth control and, if the unluck should strike, abortion. It's not realistic to expect people to stop having sex. Humans are a sexual species. No matter how much you disapprove of someone else's lifestyle, it is still not your business or concern what they do in the bedroom.

And also because abortion is often the result of rape, incest or birth defects, not necessarily because of "sleeping around". It would be beating around a bush to start talking about how people should have less sex.

Omnia - Fantasy / Mythological / Medieval Hood
Ephemera MoreColorful - SimpleSkin Recolors
Mad Poster
#13 Old 13th Apr 2019 at 3:44 AM
Quote: Originally posted by happychappy
Why does no one talk about just not doing what it takes to cause unwanted pregnancies? Stop sleeping around. Yeah obviously that's painting with a broad brush and some cases will be far more complicated, but I'll bet ya anything most women bring the situation upon themselves because OMG-sexual-liberation and OMG-it's-2019-I'll-do-whatever-the-hell-I-want. People are gonna cling onto that crap until the end of time because what's the alternative? Not thinking about yourself for once? May God strike me dead for such thinking.


It's true. We do need self control, and we need to be careful to avoid rapists. Rapists are like boulders - you can't reason with them; you can only get out of the way.
Top Secret Researcher
#14 Old 13th Apr 2019 at 4:01 AM
And what do you do when that doesn't work?

Omnia - Fantasy / Mythological / Medieval Hood
Ephemera MoreColorful - SimpleSkin Recolors
Mad Poster
#15 Old 13th Apr 2019 at 4:08 AM
Top Secret Researcher
#16 Old 13th Apr 2019 at 4:12 AM
Good for you. The problem with pro-life is that you're not just making the choice for you, but for everyone. If you were just deciding for yourself that you were not going to have an abortion ever, I would respect that 100 %. But you want to take away that right, making that choice for everyone else. That I don't respect.

And I wouldn't call it "respecting someone's views" to make that choice for them. Which you made clear you respect everyone's views regardless if you disagree with them or not.

Now, if there are any more responses after this I think it's time to move to the debate room, as this is not really what this part of the forum is for. I'm sure there's a thread on abortion already, you could just link to your post.

And I wonder why you keep ignoring my questions.

Omnia - Fantasy / Mythological / Medieval Hood
Ephemera MoreColorful - SimpleSkin Recolors
Test Subject
#17 Old 13th Apr 2019 at 5:41 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Pideli
It's not realistic to expect people to stop having sex. Humans are a sexual species.


Don't gimme that. We are perfectly capable of not sleeping around, but it means obeying morals, having self restraint, perhaps even waiting until a time you're sure a person is the one for you both for the consideration of any future children and also your OWN mental healths. Both very important factors, but people do not have the patience nor the desire to do what's right, especially when it comes to this subject and especially when they grow up basically hearing 'it's okay' every which way they turn in school and in media. Let's just be real about that. I don't like that truth any more than the next guy but that doesn't change what's true. We have a hardcoded desire to mate. That doesn't mean we can't resist or deal with it in other ways. My stomach tells me all the time to overeat but that doesn't mean I should give in to it.

Quote: Originally posted by Pideli
And also because abortion is often the result of rape, incest or birth defects, not necessarily because of "sleeping around". It would be beating around a bush to start talking about how people should have less sex.


Re-read my earlier post. Such cases are in a whole other category and I won't pretend to know what's best in such complex circumstances. My point is simple. A huge percentage of abortion cases easily do not have to happen but it comes at a moral cost most people do not want to hear.
Field Researcher
#18 Old 13th Apr 2019 at 8:52 AM
Find it hilarious how so many politicans are anti-gay but also anti-abortion...
Field Researcher
#19 Old 13th Apr 2019 at 8:54 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Pideli
Good for you. The problem with pro-life is that you're not just making the choice for you, but for everyone. If you were just deciding for yourself that you were not going to have an abortion ever, I would respect that 100 %. But you want to take away that right, making that choice for everyone else. That I don't respect.

And I wouldn't call it "respecting someone's views" to make that choice for them. Which you made clear you respect everyone's views regardless if you disagree with them or not.

Now, if there are any more responses after this I think it's time to move to the debate room, as this is not really what this part of the forum is for. I'm sure there's a thread on abortion already, you could just link to your post.

And I wonder why you keep ignoring my questions.


+1 agree
Mad Poster
#20 Old 13th Apr 2019 at 11:22 AM
Meh, I'm gonna throw in something here... but really I think this whole discussion is better suited to the debate room...

I'm very pro-choice.
I would never choose to have an abortion, but I'd never take that right away from anyone else. Being pregnant, as probably a lot of people know, is pretty difficult, it's giving your body away for 9 months and probably never having it back exactly as you'd like. Pregnancy, and especially birth, is traumatic. It's also completely life changing and irreversable. I don't think it's fair to expect someone to go through it for the sake of 'because its a life', because in the early stages when most women find out they're pregnant and seek an abortion, it's not a life at all. It's a potential life. This whole "they might grow up to be a doctor" stuff is silly. Sure, if they had been born and been healthy enough to study, and worked really hard and had parents who could afford to send them to a good university... yeah maybe they'll be a doctor, but in the same way a sperm cell may have done all those things too if it had met an egg. At the end of the day, anyone could've been a Doctor if they were given the right hand in life, we shouldn't force women to go through so much just because you see potential in a collection of cells.

I believe I'm lucky, in that I've always been careful with birth control, always using 2 types, never sleeping around, etc. Both me and my partner were told we were infertile for various reasons, but we got pregnant the first time we tried to concieve - which is an absolute miracle in itself. But I count us as the lucky ones. We had the money to have a baby, I'm healthy enough to carry a child, we're both very family orientated and I trust that my partner would still be in the baby's life if we did break up, and although since concieving our situation has changed slightly (read: everything costs more, we make less), we're able to adapt to that change and are still confident we can raise a child under those restricting circumstances. Despite us both having fertility problems, the first time either of us ever had sex unprotected, we got pregnant - which is good for us because we were trying to concieve, but it really does show just how easy it can be to concieve. Some people spend years and years trying and don't succeed, others it only takes 1 "oops".

Though I can't speak from experience, abortions are quite traumatic too. Women don't just choose to get them on a whim, it really is an emotional decision to make. There's usually something more than just "I don't feel like having a baby". There's all kinds of health concerns - either for the women or for the child, rape, incest, the mother is too young, they've already had several children (don't forget, women can become pregnant again within 3 weeks of giving birth and birth control fails sometimes), worried about passing on a physical/mental disability, in fact even having a c-section can lead to high-risks in the next pregnancy that I wouldn't judge someone to want to avoid. I don't think it's fair that women have to go through that, or be judged for making the decision they thought was best. Telling women that if they don't want to get pregnant, they should just abstain from sex is ridiculous. Many people seeking abortions are married with children already, you're saying that after you've had the maximum number of children you want, you should just.... not have sex? or people with physical/mental disabilities should just not have sex? Even then, drinking is a big part of many cultures, and sadly peoples morals become quite diminished when they drink. Also, the majority of people have slept with more than 1 person - could you imagine having a child with every person you've slept with? on average in Europe the average amount of sexual partners is between 5-7 (depending on country). Clearly, we don't just have sex for procreation, so it's rude to assume that people who don't want to have children right now shouldn't be having it. Then there's high schoolers 'experimenting' - why should they have to completely ruin their education for being understandably curious at that age? The vast majority of people didn't lose their virginity on their wedding night, in a stable relationship, already owning their own house, car, etc. The vast majority did it in high school/college and were by no means ready to take care of a baby.

I do think it's ridiculous that a women can go to 24 weeks of pregnancy (in this country) and have an abortion for socioeconomic reasons (i.e. purely because they don't want/can't afford a baby) and I think the law needs to reduce that dramatically - seeing as that's literally past half way through a pregnancy. I can't really think of a socioeconomic reason you'd wait that long for an abortion, surely it would make more sense to put the child up for adoption when it's born, seeing as you'd most likely have to give birth to it anyway. I think it's pretty cruel to carry a baby to 24 weeks, considering how developed they are by that stage, to then decided "nah, actually, I don't want it". By 24 weeks, I knew my baby would kick along to Queen, got hiccups when I ate jelly and preferred to lie on the side my partner was closest to (which, in my opinion, is somewhat of a personality forming). She had all her organs, was about as long as a subway sandwich, had small little details like fingerprints and eyelashes, etc. I couldn't imagine choosing to end her life that far along (though, I was also singing to my belly 1 day past ovulation, so I think it's fair to say I don't understand what it feels like to not bond with your baby). I don't see any reason why someone would (again, for socioeconomic reasons), rather than just sticking to it for the next few months and putting a baby up for adoption.

However, as someone said before, if people want an abortion so badly, they will get one. They'll get unsafe ones that could kill them, or fail and cause all kinds of damage to the baby. etc. Making abortion illegal won't make abortions not happen, and no amount of education is going to convince everyone that abortion is wrong. I know it's silly to compare abortion to drugs, but, drugs are illegal. We are taught in school not to take drugs. People still take drugs. They're not even necessarily bad people or criminals, sometimes people do what they can to 'fix' the situation they're in, whether we legalise it or approve of it or not.

~Your friendly neighborhood ginge
Field Researcher
#21 Old 13th Apr 2019 at 8:12 PM
Quote: Originally posted by happychappy
Don't gimme that. We are perfectly capable of not sleeping around, but it means obeying morals, having self restraint, perhaps even waiting until a time you're sure a person is the one for you both for the consideration of any future children and also your OWN mental healths. Both very important factors, but people do not have the patience nor the desire to do what's right, especially when it comes to this subject and especially when they grow up basically hearing 'it's okay' every which way they turn in school and in media. Let's just be real about that. I don't like that truth any more than the next guy but that doesn't change what's true. We have a hardcoded desire to mate. That doesn't mean we can't resist or deal with it in other ways. My stomach tells me all the time to overeat but that doesn't mean I should give in to it.



Re-read my earlier post. Such cases are in a whole other category and I won't pretend to know what's best in such complex circumstances. My point is simple. A huge percentage of abortion cases easily do not have to happen but it comes at a moral cost most people do not want to hear.


There are plenty of people who can sleep around and not get pregnant or get anyone pregnant, though.
Instructor
#22 Old 14th Apr 2019 at 3:22 AM
I don't see the harm in murder if no one is harmed physically or emotionally. Can the fetus feel the pain of dying? Not if you use a numbing agent first or it's very early in development. Can the fetus feel fear or any concern for their life? No, of course not!

This is why abortion isn't any worse than masturbation. That is to say, it's really not.
Top Secret Researcher
#23 Old 14th Apr 2019 at 4:25 AM
Quote: Originally posted by happychappy
Don't gimme that. We are perfectly capable of not sleeping around, but it means obeying morals, having self restraint, perhaps even waiting until a time you're sure a person is the one for you both for the consideration of any future children and also your OWN mental healths. Both very important factors, but people do not have the patience nor the desire to do what's right, especially when it comes to this subject and especially when they grow up basically hearing 'it's okay' every which way they turn in school and in media. Let's just be real about that. I don't like that truth any more than the next guy but that doesn't change what's true. We have a hardcoded desire to mate. That doesn't mean we can't resist or deal with it in other ways. My stomach tells me all the time to overeat but that doesn't mean I should give in to it.
[...] A huge percentage of abortion cases easily do not have to happen but it comes at a moral cost most people do not want to hear.

What "morals" are you talking about here? Your personal morals? Many people do not believe it's in any way "immoral" to sleep around, so they do it. Why would it necessarily be immoral? Something is only immoral if it negatively affects someone else. Sleeping around can be immoral, if it involves cheating on someone or intentionally spreading diseases, for example. But not the act itself. If both (or all) partners are consenting, what is immoral about it? Dare I guess it has something to do with religion? Not everyone believes in the same religion, or any at all. Who are you to say what's "right" here? It's true you can abstain from sex. But why do that? It's not like it's a huge percentage of casual sex that leads to accidental pregnancy. So expecting people to abstain from what they deem a vital part of their lives for the slight risk that there may be an accident is, yes, unrealistic.

And if I understand you correctly, you're saying you should only have sex with someone if you plan on having children with them? Since when is procreation the only reason for sex?
Here's a crazy thought: Maybe people do it because... it feels good?
Contraception exists for a reason.

@Bigsimsfan12 Good post! I agree with you.
I'm generally pro choice up to the point when the fetus develops a consciousness. Which, according to this article is around 24-27 weeks. However, most abortion laws I've seen have a limit much earlier than that. Like in Sweden (which is very liberal) it's currently free abortion up to the 18th week. I see no reason to change that, for several reasons. One is that we should avoid any chance the fetus could suffer, so a margin is good. That is the fundamental difference between a fetus and a baby - a fetus has no consciousness, can not suffer or survive outside of the womb. It becomes a baby when it can do that.

The second reason is that the vast majority of abortions already take place much earlier than that. The more you wait for an abortion, the more traumatic it becomes. Late-term abortions are quite uncommon. In Sweden they require special permission from the National Board of Health and Welfare. In those cases it's rarely an unwanted pregnancy that is the reason, but rather severe birth defects, like Anencephaly. Many birth defects don't arise until late in pregnancy. Anencephaly is an absence of a large portion of the brain, which means the baby has no consciousness.

That's what it comes down to. Most pro-choice people support the right to have an abortion precisely because the fetus doesn't suffer being aborted. So there is no gain in forbidding abortions. Most pro-choicers and pro-lifers can agree on late-term abortions being unacceptable, because of that fundamental difference. (With, of course, the exception of severe birth defects like Anencephaly which negates that difference.) There may be more exceptions since this is a complicated subject, but that's the gist of it.

Omnia - Fantasy / Mythological / Medieval Hood
Ephemera MoreColorful - SimpleSkin Recolors
Top Secret Researcher
#24 Old 14th Apr 2019 at 4:50 AM
(Response to a post in the Vent thread that continued off topic)
@purplestuddedcoffin
Quote: Originally posted by purplestuddedcoffin
Cause, those are groups people tend to fight to take rights away from for the sole reason of being of that group. At least in the US

That sounds like an over-simplification and misrepresentation to me. And if it's not, please support your argument with evidence. Start by giving a concrete example.

To tie it back to abortion, I agree that for example, people are trying to take away the right for women to have abortions. However, I do not believe they do it for the sole reason that they're women. Pro-lifers believe abortion is murder because they believe a fetus is a baby already. So in their mind they're acting in the interest of "saving the babies". Not just to take away rights from women because it's fun. Now, any of you pro-lifers can tell me if I'm wrong on that, but I don't think it's necessary to make a strawman here. I still passionately disagree with them, as you all know. But I don't believe they have bad intentions.

I strongly recommend you watch this amazing TED talk by Megan Phelps-Roper. One of the great things she said was (paraphrasing): Assuming ill motives immediately cuts us off from truly understanding why the other side might think the way they do. In order to have a chance at a productive discussion, you must first stop assuming bad intent. If you start assuming good or neutral intent, you will have a much stronger framework for dialogue.

Now of course, intentions are not everything. Like the famous quote goes: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Also, if you do want to go down that rabbit hole, I have examples of where rights are not just taken away from women and colored people, but for white men as well. Sometimes it's useful to look outside the scope of race and gender and see what laws are actually intended to accomplish, instead of having the knee-jerk reaction of: "omg, they just want to oppress people!"

I also noticed you didn't respond to my question if you think it's okay to hate white people and men.

Omnia - Fantasy / Mythological / Medieval Hood
Ephemera MoreColorful - SimpleSkin Recolors
Field Researcher
#25 Old 15th Apr 2019 at 12:22 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Pideli
(Response to a post in the Vent thread that continued off topic)
@purplestuddedcoffin

That sounds like an over-simplification and misrepresentation to me. And if it's not, please support your argument with evidence. Start by giving a concrete example.

To tie it back to abortion, I agree that for example, people are trying to take away the right for women to have abortions. However, I do not believe they do it for the sole reason that they're women. Pro-lifers believe abortion is murder because they believe a fetus is a baby already. So in their mind they're acting in the interest of "saving the babies". Not just to take away rights from women because it's fun. Now, any of you pro-lifers can tell me if I'm wrong on that, but I don't think it's necessary to make a strawman here. I still passionately disagree with them, as you all know. But I don't believe they have bad intentions.

I strongly recommend you watch this amazing TED talk by Megan Phelps-Roper. One of the great things she said was (paraphrasing): Assuming ill motives immediately cuts us off from truly understanding why the other side might think the way they do. In order to have a chance at a productive discussion, you must first stop assuming bad intent. If you start assuming good or neutral intent, you will have a much stronger framework for dialogue.

Now of course, intentions are not everything. Like the famous quote goes: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Also, if you do want to go down that rabbit hole, I have examples of where rights are not just taken away from women and colored people, but for white men as well. Sometimes it's useful to look outside the scope of race and gender and see what laws are actually intended to accomplish, instead of having the knee-jerk reaction of: "omg, they just want to oppress people!"

I also noticed you didn't respond to my question if you think it's okay to hate white people and men.


If a teenage girl gets pregnant, in many states, she cannot continue school. So by not being able to get an abortion she has to drop out. This is why abortions are a big women's rights issue. No one should have to continue to carry a child without wanting to, legally it can get in the way of many things and with honor killings and stuff, a girl could die if she has to keep her kid.

Most people are not oppressing just to oppress but to protect themselves. This leads to people's rights being taken away and groups being oppressed.

It's important to remember most of these politicians don't actually believe what they are preaching. Many republicans want to take away abortion rights to uplift WASP-y men, because they know they can leave the country and get an abortion for their teen daughter if she gets pregnant. Most of them really don't give a shit about unborn babies. So maybe their intention isn't to oppress people, but it is to protect their own interests at the cost of many people's rights.

The Westboro Baptist Church really mistified me until I remembered all the "traditional family" activists who fuck rentboys in their offices. They, again, want to take away rights from the LGBT just because of the shame they feel for being the way they are. They were raised to believe being gay or bi or trans is wrong so it's easier to repress it and preach that you can change because that is what they want to believe, they are again protecting their own interests and building a facade of normality at the cost of many many people's rights. Now, I don't know if the church's thinking is this way: they have nothing to gain from being anti-LGBT really. But they see this sentiment spread and to tie it back to abortions, many pro lifers grow up in religious communities, hear that it's sin and don't think much more.

I'm watching the video right now, she makes great points and her story is very interesting. I feel like meeting people who come from scary places, either physically or emotionally, they have a different sort of empathy. I do agree not everyone has good intentions. But time has proven again and again, most people are protecting their own interests no matter who goes down. I do also think a lot of people just hate certain groups of people because of the sentiment they hvae heard being spread, because I've met people like that.

If a white man is a minority in another way or because of where he is, he can have his rights taken away from him. But most white men's rights are not being taken away from them for things that affect their white-ness or man-ness .

I think I just forgot, honestly. But I think hating men and white people is another result of sexism and racism. There would be no back and forth if women and racial minorities were not oppressed to begin with, but we can end things by being civil with people on the other side and not hating them just for
 
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