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The Great AntiJen
retired moderator
Original Poster
#1 Old 3rd Dec 2016 at 10:17 PM

This user has the following games installed:

Sims 2, University, Nightlife, Open for Business, Pets, Seasons, Bon Voyage, Free Time, Apartment Life
Default Sims Refs and Cleaning Lots
I know we've talked about this before but I'm having trouble finding the posts - I want to know about sims refs in lots and cleaning them. I think @joandsarah77 and @Jawusa might be the most likely to know what I'm on about - though if you know too, for heaven's sake stick your oar in.

When you have a lot that's been occupied and you want to pack it to a Sims2Pack file, you end up with Sim references in the lot - SRels and SimScores as I understand it. Is that right? You do get Sim refs in a lot anyway, I think, but typically how many if the lot has not been occupied? And also, what technique do you use to clean the lot?

I no longer come over to MTS very often but if you would like to ask me a question then you can find me on tumblr or my own site tflc. TFLC has an archive of all my CC downloads.
I'm here on tumblr and my site, tflc
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Needs Coffee
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#2 Old 3rd Dec 2016 at 10:35 PM
That hailed me but the link to the post was broken, don't know why. I checked under your profile and found your latest post to get here instead.

I use Jawusa's method. I have it saved someplace but can't seem to find it. I place the lot in a blank hood, open it in SimPE and remove all the references. Then load the lot and make one change such as picking a chair up and placing it back down, save and package. All lots have some references, even unplayed lots. If the lot has been occupied expect a list. Again with my memory I can't recall what off the top of my head, but a range of them and you will know them when you see them. I'm sure Jawsua will have a much better reply.

"I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road and not be questioned about their motives." - Unknown
~Call me Jo~
The Great AntiJen
retired moderator
Original Poster
#3 Old 3rd Dec 2016 at 10:45 PM
Might be because I'm using the staff version of the site - sorry.

That makes sense and is what I remembered. Do you have any idea of how many refs a lot would typically have if unplayed?

I no longer come over to MTS very often but if you would like to ask me a question then you can find me on tumblr or my own site tflc. TFLC has an archive of all my CC downloads.
I'm here on tumblr and my site, tflc
Needs Coffee
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#4 Old 3rd Dec 2016 at 11:19 PM
Someone ran a test of it, Gummi or iCad maybe? I've never looked myself.

"I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road and not be questioned about their motives." - Unknown
~Call me Jo~
The Great AntiJen
retired moderator
Original Poster
#5 Old 4th Dec 2016 at 3:56 PM
OK I did a small experiment.

I created a lot - using the same lot - residential obviously, I created 3 versions:
1. in the bin
2. placed but no residents
3. placed with resident sim moved in and since moved out

Results:
1. lot in bin has 63 sim scores in file
2. placed lot with no resident has 63 sim scores in file
3. placed lot with resident (only there a short time), since moved out - 63 Sims Scores but also 6 SRels

@gummilut or @icad - sorry we're not sure which of you did this before - does this correspond with your findings?

From that it seems the game creates some SimScores always but SRels only get created if there's been a resident sim. More tests needed without doubt.

I no longer come over to MTS very often but if you would like to ask me a question then you can find me on tumblr or my own site tflc. TFLC has an archive of all my CC downloads.
I'm here on tumblr and my site, tflc
The Great AntiJen
retired moderator
Original Poster
#6 Old 4th Dec 2016 at 4:38 PM Last edited by maxon : 4th Dec 2016 at 4:49 PM.
OK and a bit more - thought I'd double post to keep it separate:

1. I cleaned the lot of Sim refs in SimPE went back into the game and went into the lot, changed a bit and saved (as per Jo's cleaning advice above)
2. Packed up lot in 1., exited game, reinstalled with Clean Installer, placed lot, went in changed something and saved

Results:
1. On cleaning then saving the lot again, 63 Sim Scores reappeared in lot file. It strikes me this is either a consistent number or depends on your game set up and/or the neighbourhood - I'd have to check in another neighbourhood to tell. It seems though that the game putting in a number of SimScores is a standard thing and is consistent in any one neighbourhood at least

2. On packing the cleaned lot and re-installing it to game via Clean Installer, the lot once again has 63 Sim Scores but also, slightly worringly, 2 SRels. I didn't expect that. The worry is that that comes from the original 'moved in sim' version of the lot. The version of the lot that had never had a sim didn't get SRels at all. Hmmmm

Edit:
Just to add, I tried it in another neighbourhood

Still 63 Sim Scores and 2 SRels so it does look like those SRels go with the lot and the Scores is consistent at 63. I might try a different lot.

I no longer come over to MTS very often but if you would like to ask me a question then you can find me on tumblr or my own site tflc. TFLC has an archive of all my CC downloads.
I'm here on tumblr and my site, tflc
Needs Coffee
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#7 Old 4th Dec 2016 at 9:10 PM
I wasn't expecting the 2SRels. Did you build the lot in a populated hood or an empty hood?

"I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road and not be questioned about their motives." - Unknown
~Call me Jo~
The Great AntiJen
retired moderator
Original Poster
#8 Old 4th Dec 2016 at 9:27 PM
Quote: Originally posted by joandsarah77
I wasn't expecting the 2SRels. Did you build the lot in a populated hood or an empty hood?

Populated technically since there was one other sim in the (test) hood and I did play (or run the timer forward) for half a day. I'm not so much concerned about the 2 SRels as the fact that they seemed to attach to the lot after cleaning. Obviously, if you were cleaning the lot, you'd use an empty hood for the purpose. I might try that.

I no longer come over to MTS very often but if you would like to ask me a question then you can find me on tumblr or my own site tflc. TFLC has an archive of all my CC downloads.
I'm here on tumblr and my site, tflc
Undead Molten Llama
#9 Old 5th Dec 2016 at 1:23 AM
Quote: Originally posted by maxon
OK I did a small experiment.

I created a lot - using the same lot - residential obviously, I created 3 versions:
1. in the bin
2. placed but no residents
3. placed with resident sim moved in and since moved out

Results:
1. lot in bin has 63 sim scores in file
2. placed lot with no resident has 63 sim scores in file
3. placed lot with resident (only there a short time), since moved out - 63 Sims Scores but also 6 SRels

@gummilut or @icad - sorry we're not sure which of you did this before - does this correspond with your findings?


Yes, it does. I don't remember where I made the post; it was one of the threads on here that discussed this issue. But I placed an empty lot, packaged it, then checked it in SimPE and it had no Sim Scores. I then placed the same lot with objects and walls on it, packaged it, and checked it in SimPE. It had Sim Scores, specifically one for each object placed (if you counted all the walls as one object, which makes sense) but, again, no Rels. I then moved one of the Sim Bin families onto the lot and packaged it. Then it had family trees and relationships and all that. I did not attempt to clean it and retest it, however. Anyway, it seems that Sim Scores are not an issue at all; they generate on anything but an empty lot and are apparently related to objects. I don't really know if Rels are that much of an issue, either.

I'm mostly found on (and mostly upload to) Tumblr these days because, alas, there are only 24 hours in a day.
Muh Simblr! | An index of my downloads on Tumblr.
The Great AntiJen
retired moderator
Original Poster
#10 Old 5th Dec 2016 at 12:22 PM
We were discussing it on the staff chat last night. My experience in general, as here, is a number of SRels if the lot is occupied but a significantly reduced number if the lot is cleaned and repacked. However, others were saying they saw up to 120 SRels get generated in unlived in lots and we speculated it might be to do with neighbourhood population. As I am testing in test hoods (no or few playable sims) and use empty templates and no regen mods, this might explain the very low number I got this time. So I'm going to conduct some more tests with hoods with different populations. I agree SCORs seem not to be a problem though I'm not 100% convinced by the link to the number of objects. I'll test that too.

I no longer come over to MTS very often but if you would like to ask me a question then you can find me on tumblr or my own site tflc. TFLC has an archive of all my CC downloads.
I'm here on tumblr and my site, tflc
The Great AntiJen
retired moderator
Original Poster
#11 Old 6th Dec 2016 at 1:50 PM
Another double-post - tut tut

I ran a couple more tests and turned up something interesting I think. I've been working with some lots of mine and was cleaning them up in the manner Jo described up thread. I thought I'd try out placing them in different types of neighbourhood and see if that made a difference to what got included.

1. So I made a completely empty neighbourhood and another one with 1 playable and 12 townies.

The lots were cleaned and saved in an originating neighbourhood with no sims. After packing and reinstalling, they were placed in the new hoods.

Results
Both lots included 63 sim SCORs but no SRels
On placement in both the occupied and unoccupied hoods, entering lot, changing something, saving, both lots still had 63 sim SCORs but no SRels

Hmm - not quite what I expected but it seems SRels has nothing to do with the destination hood. SCORs on the other hand seem to be consistent - either related to the originating hood or your game set up

2. So, I tried building a quick lot in the occupied hood - saved and packed - no sim on lot, needless to say. I then exited game and installed the packed lot to the bin, restarted game and placed a copy of the lot in the two hoods - one occupied, one not. Entered, made a change and saved.

Results
The lot in both hoods had 6 SRels and 63 SCORs

So it would seem to me that the SRels come from building in an occupied neighbourhood but the SCORs are dependant on your game set up (since this lot was built in a different hood from the first two but the number is the same). You should then expect to see SimSCORs in a packed lot but you can avoid SRels by building in a completely empty-of-sims hood.

So, this confirms Jo's building strategy - place a lot in an empty hood, enter lot, change something and save. That's the version of the lot to pack.

Having said that, it's not clear what happened to the SRels in the lot from the occupied hood but the good news is that neither hood where the lot with 6 SRels was placed have SRels in their listing at all which indicates that they don't get transferred to the neighbourhood on placement of the lot (even the occupied neighbourhood had not been played, just the sims created). I'm not sure what would happen once the lot was occupied though. Might try that next.

I no longer come over to MTS very often but if you would like to ask me a question then you can find me on tumblr or my own site tflc. TFLC has an archive of all my CC downloads.
I'm here on tumblr and my site, tflc
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#12 Old 6th Dec 2016 at 4:04 PM Last edited by Jawusa : 6th Dec 2016 at 4:20 PM.
Sorry for not replying in this thread. I have been terribly busy this week.

There are always sim references, I always ended up with new sim references getting created over and over again. I don't think there's a way to stop them but they are not harmless anyway. Any new sim references that get generated after the removal are basically safe (unless someone's on the lot).

Also not all types of sim references get generated if there's no sim on the lot. For instance, Sim DNA, Sim Wants & Fears and sub-group of Sim Relationships SRels (the ones for sims) cannot be generated if the lot is unoccupied during the sim reference removal.

However, SRels don't necessarily have to link to a sim; they can also store some information about objects! For instance, which kitchen counter is connected to which, which of the counters is the corner, which is in the middle, which is the terminal counter, etc. - this kind of relation also gets saved as a "Sim Relationship" although the counters are objects, not sims. And I think SimScores can also refer to objects. But I'm sure that SimDNA and Sim Wants & Fears can only be linked to sims; these records never appear in unoccupied lots.

But to make sure that SRels/SimScores really don't link to a sim (as this can be a problem if the lot is moved to another neighborhood), the safest option would be to remove any sims on the lot (also the ones who are "guests") and remove all sim references and let the game generate new ones.

Evidence for SRels linking to objects:
Well, I was cleaning the lots of Emerald Heights by removing all sim references - that also makes the file size smaller and thus easier to upload.

But then Peni Griffin reported about counters that weren't connected to each other in her lot she made for the neighborhood. I had a look myself and saw that also other lots were affected, not just hers.
Previously, the counters were all connected but that was before I had removed the sim references.
After I re-connected them again, I had a look in SimPE and saw that the game added new SRel records. But Emerald Heights was completely empty; no sims!

This indicates that the SRels can also link to specific objects (like kitchen counters) and not only to sims.

Catalogue of Custom Neighborhoods for TS2
All Hood Building Group neighborhoods are available here
Want to get rid of EA's sims in neighborhoods? Check out my Clean and Empty Steatlh Hoods and Clean and Empty Neighborhood Templates
My Simblr
The Great AntiJen
retired moderator
Original Poster
#13 Old 6th Dec 2016 at 9:45 PM
As I said, I think the SCORs are related to your game set up as I seem to be consistently getting 63 in a lot no matter what I do.

As for SRels, you may be right about linking of objects - makes sort of sense - but I want to point out that the lot that I built in an occupied hood had no objects in it and it still generated 6 SRels. It was practically identical to a lot built in an unoccupied hood which generated no SRels at any point. It seems to me then, that having sims around might be a thing. Having said that, the SRels didn't appear to get transferred to the new hood - which is good.

I'll try a lot with counters though.

I no longer come over to MTS very often but if you would like to ask me a question then you can find me on tumblr or my own site tflc. TFLC has an archive of all my CC downloads.
I'm here on tumblr and my site, tflc
Needs Coffee
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#14 Old 6th Dec 2016 at 11:27 PM
That is very interesting regarding the counters. I had counters disconnect in a lot I cleaned as well but at the time didn't realize it was from the lot cleaning.

"I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road and not be questioned about their motives." - Unknown
~Call me Jo~
The Great AntiJen
retired moderator
Original Poster
#15 Old 11th Dec 2016 at 5:48 PM
Well I did another experiment today in my two neighbourhoods - one completely empty of sims and one with 1 resident and 12 townies.

I built the same 'house' in each - just four walls with some windows (4) to let light in. Then I placed
  • 11 counters (cheap ones) which should be 10 connections
  • 5 connecting lounge chairs (4 connections)
  • a sequence of counter-fridge-counter-cooker-counter (4 connections)

Then saved the lot. There was nothing else.

When I opened up the lots in both neighbourhoods in SimPE, I got:

Unoccupied neighbourhood - 17 SRels in the lot
Occupied neighbourhood - 33 SRels in the lot

That confirms what Jawusa says which is that objects like counters do add SRels BUT what is interesting is that again the occupied hood added extra SRels to the lot even though the lot had no resident sim. Something else is going on there.

I've also been speaking to Nysha about OBJTs in the lot files - with lots that have had resident sims the game will create in game 'objects' which seem to be social controllers and other records of specific sims - bit like tokens I guess. These are not being cleaned, as far as I can gather, by the method Jo outlined above. I've yet to have a look and see how quickly they get generated and if they get transferred to the hood though (if I can).

I no longer come over to MTS very often but if you would like to ask me a question then you can find me on tumblr or my own site tflc. TFLC has an archive of all my CC downloads.
I'm here on tumblr and my site, tflc
Trainee Moderator
staff: trainee moderator
#16 Old 25th Dec 2016 at 9:23 PM
That's really interesting! What happens if you delete the sim references once again, move it into the bin and place it in the empty neighborhood? Does it have 17 or 33 SRels then?

Catalogue of Custom Neighborhoods for TS2
All Hood Building Group neighborhoods are available here
Want to get rid of EA's sims in neighborhoods? Check out my Clean and Empty Steatlh Hoods and Clean and Empty Neighborhood Templates
My Simblr
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