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|15th Sep 2010, 10:07 AM||The Banning of joninmobile for stealing #1|
Delphy, I have a few questions and concerns regarding the banning of joninmobile that I would respectfully like to submit for attention.
#1 - "not the first time": is there documentation of another such incidence of Jon having stolen another creator's textures or work?
#2 - Was any evidence presented to Jon regarding the alleged theft and was he given the opportunity to make any reply to the allegation?
I do understand that site owner and staff have provided reasonable rules and regulations to which all members must agree. This is beneficial to members who enjoy all the wealth of creative talent made accessible at the site.
I also understand that the owner and staff work hard to provide a friendly environment for social as well as creative activity. I do not ask so much for justification but for review.
May I offer a couple of links for perusal?
Jon's creation may have been taken from the 3D model found here and this one here.
Could these 3D models be manipulated or modified? How many 3D models do you suppose exist on the internet for the Tardis or even letterboxes or any iconic subject?
I have browsed many sites searching for items to use for my lots and Sims. I have seen many duplications in ideas, objects, mods, meshing, textures, patterns, etc. I have heard, but not seen myself, where some persons have taken things and posted them to other sites with little or no changes.
MTS2 is a high-quality site, well-managed with a knowledgable and helpful staff. My main concern is not justification or accusation but to achieve an amicable resolution. I ask that this issue, please be reviewed and reconsidered.
Thank you for your time and attention, Nonni
|15th Sep 2010, 10:26 AM||#2|
1) He uploaded a bunch of meshes, taken from Turbosquid, without any credit. We gave him the opportunity then to add credit, even though he REALLY should've known by then to credit anything he's used by anyone else. He admitted to it and those are still visible on his profile. He had opportunity after that to go, "Hmm, I really should credit where my meshes come from," and remove the Tardis from TSR but he chose not to.
2) This was the last straw. Jon hasn't been given any opportunity to reply because, honestly, we're sick of this from him. He's been uploading for years and knows better. He asked Maylin for permission, she said no, and he did it anyway. He's responded to the allegations on the TSR thread, accusing Maylin of using Turbosquid meshes, which is just silly considering her Tardis really doesn't resemble any of the Turbosquid ones beyond being, y'know, a Tardis.
None of the meshes on Turbosquid are really that close to Maylin's (and thus Jon's) if you look closely. Note the use of Comic Sans for the "Police Box" text, the black-on-white almost handwritten look of the text on the door, and the panes on the little windows encasing the lights (nine panes total - smaller on the sides than the middle). None of the Turbosquid meshes use those elements. Maylin's, however, does. And thus so does Jon's.
The textures used on jon's Tardis are identical to Maylin's, except his are a little more saturated blue.
Rest assured, we investigated this before taking any action, and it is not done hastily. If this were the first time he'd been caught stealing, we would've let him off with a warning. But when he's gone and asked permission, been told no, and then goes and does it anyway, then denies he did it at all... he is no longer welcome on this site.
|15th Sep 2010, 10:58 AM||#3|
Thank you, HP, for your response. I wonder if you could tell me if Jon ever repaired the lapse in judgement and modified his uploads with the appropriate credit to the mesh creators? I understand that creators who upload to TSR cannot remove their own uploads and that Jon has made a request of the site TSR that it be removed.
|15th Sep 2010, 11:06 AM||#4|
Jon did give credit for the Turbosquid meshes once we called him on it - but it took us catching him and having to tell him to do i for it to happen. He's still trying to claim on the TSR thread that he didn't modify it from Maylin's. In any case, that upload is reported to TSR (at least twice, with links and evidence) and hopefully they'll remove it - but he's certainly not admitting to it or apologetic in any way. And tbh, after already stealing stuff once and being called on it, and then deciding to ignore Maylin not giving permission for the conversion he went ahead and did anyway and posted on TSR anyway (despite being told not to), he's no longer welcome here in any case, even if he owns up to it.
(Also, just as an aside - I know you addressed this to Delphy, but as he's at work currently and I was present during the discussion of this stuff, I'm responding - hope ya don't mind. )
|15th Sep 2010, 11:07 AM||#5|
Yes, he did alter the uploads using turbosquid meshes to give credit. Since jonin has just explicitly said on TSR that the TARDIS is not Maylin's, which it clearly is, it seems unlikely that he would have requested that it be removed. If he has, then at the very least he could have added credit to Maylin and apologised to her for ignoring her wishes, even if he wasn't able to get it removed immediately. Either way it's too little, too late - he knew when he uploaded it that he did not have permission to upload it.
"On the page, punctuation performs its grammatical function, but in the mind of the reader it does more than that. It tells the reader how to hum the tune." - Lynn Truss, Eats, Shoots and Leaves
|15th Sep 2010, 11:12 AM||#6|
Join Date: Jan 2009
I would like to hear more about his “stealing stuff once and being called on it”. The only time I have heard anything was when he was accused of stealing his own work and putting it on another site under TheNinthWave.
It sounds like Joninmobile has been accused, tried and convicted to a life sentence without a hearing. I thought the accused had a constitutional right to a fair hearing.
|15th Sep 2010, 11:19 AM||#7|
Look under his profile - there's a Borg cube, pirate ship, barrel, and I think several other meshes all that -now- have Turbosquid credits. They did not have credits for them originally - he uploaded them as his own without crediting the original creator of the meshes and textures. Those credits were only added when we noticed a surprisingly detailed mesh and texture in the queue, out of his normal style, and got curious and went hunting for where it might've come from. We don't trumpet it from the rooftops when people are caught stealing and fix it. But you only get one chance. If you're caught stealing again, you're no longer welcome here. And this was his second chance - and, tbh, is even worse than just forgetting some Turbosquid credits, because Maylin told him -no- when he asked. It's not just "without permission" - it's with anti-permission.
We don't just ban people without reason. He's stolen other stuff and was given the opportunity to fix it. He had the opportunity to fix this too (especially after we pointed out that no, you can't just go uploading other peoples' work as your own without credit), ignored Maylin saying "No you can't convert my stuff and put it on TSR" and is now denying it and accusing Maylin of stealing (which is silly - looking at the coffee maker of hers vs. the one on Turbosquid they're obviously different, and no way would one be able to reduce the polys on that one to make hers and have it look good - even if they were the same) rather than owning up to it.
Show me a Tardis mesh - on Turbosquid or anywhere else, that uses these exact textures:
... and we will happily apologize and lift the ban. Those are Maylin's textures. A slightly more saturated version but otherwise identical are used on Jon's Tardis:
This is not a courtroom. This is a privately owned and operated site that has clear rules against stealing content. Joninmobile has violated this repeatedly, knowingly, willfully, and thus is no longer welcome here.
|15th Sep 2010, 11:49 AM||#8|
Thanks for all HystericalParoxysm and whiterider. I just want to add that all the meshes I upload here are only made by me (you can't find them on Turbosquid or elsewhere on the web, sorry!) with Blender (yes, hours and hours of hard work, nothing else ) and all my textures are uv mapped and baked with Blender too, since the Riviera BBQ (first item I made with the baking option in Blender). So you can not find my textures on objects other than those made by me and here is the texture joninmobile used on "his" tardis' mesh (not a screenshot but an exported image from Jon's package in s3pe):
You can check each items on my profile page and you will see that my uv map is always done the same way (projection parts of the mesh one by one on an image ) and then baking in Blender
Sorry I can't take requests anymore!
And I will probably never convert my creations for TS2 to TS3.
|15th Sep 2010, 12:26 PM||#9|
From what I know of HP she usually bends over backwards to give people the benefit of the doubt in these cases. Delphy might be a bit tougher, but I am sure HP would have implored him to keep Joninmobile if she had any doubt at all he was intentionally disrespecting other people's work.
|15th Sep 2010, 12:28 PM||#10|
Thank you, again, HP, for your input. I know from conversations with rebecah that you are a person of integrity and I appreciate that you answered in behalf of Delphy.
I am a technically challenged elder in real life and I apologize for repeating myself but when did Jon steal from another Sims creator? I do see the side-by-side of the 2 meshes and appreciate the trouble you have gone to present evidence.
I find it to be rare that Sims creators give credit to the mesh artist when they upload "new" objects. I have often found these things have been copied from meshes I have found while browsing Turbosquid. Even before this issue was brought up I wondered why Sims creators did not give credit to the mesh artist or at least mention they found the mesh on "such and such" a site.
I am relieved that there has not been any irrational burst of profanity or additional accusations in this thread. I truly believe that MTS2 staff is not on a "witch hunt". I fervently hope that Jon's request to the staff of TSR for removal of the offensive "Tardis" is regarded as a offering of peace.
MTS2 is a private site and does not have to justify or answer to the general Sims community regarding staff decisions. Again, I say "Thanks" for your time and effort.
I am incredibly saddened to think that there can be no reconciliation in this matter. Even "lifers" are allowed Parole Hearings.
|15th Sep 2010, 12:36 PM||#11|
Inge - Hehe thanks. I'm certainly not perfect, but I am often the one who investigates alleged thievery. Delphy's not really a mesh and texture person, and while he did click the ban button and post the thread about it, we had a very clear staff consensus before that happened. Before any action is done, we always get proof - looking at the meshes in a 3D editor, looking at textures side by side, etc., and if there's any question or confusion over whether something is stolen, we get further opinions, ask the accuser to provide layer-separated or WIP stuff so we can see for sure that the resources are theirs, etc... Roughly 50% of the allegations of theft turn out to be false - similar items that bear a resemblance by coincidence, using the same source textures that were not theirs originally, etc... Before we started investigating thoroughly like this, staff -did- make mistakes and act too quickly so now our procedures for theft are pretty careful to make sure nobody gets in trouble for something they didn't do. But if we do make a mistake even now being careful, and someone can show us proof of it, I'll be the first to apologize and retract my previous statements.
Hi Nonni - if you look under joninmobile's profile at the ship & barrel, Borg Cube, and... I honestly forget which others (I wasn't the one who discovered it/handled it) but any of them with Turbosquid credits for meshes and textures were uploaded originally with no credit whatsoever - claiming someone else's work as his own without offering them credit. We're fine with people using meshes and textures with permission and credit - some of our most popular creators like Fresh-Prince do so all the time. But we had to catch Jon using Turbosquid stuff without credit before it was added. I don't have side-by-sides for those but he says right on the threads where they came from - those credits were not present before he was directed to add them.
I would regard Jon asking TSR to remove the Tardis as a peace offering if he were admitting to stealing it in the first place. Instead, he's still claiming it's not stolen and just wants it removed because we're "going on a rampage and starting drama over it." That, to me, is not a peace offering, but trying to cover your own tracks without admitting to any wrongdoing.
Like I said upthread, and I'll say again - if he or anyone else can prove the mesh and textures are not stolen from Maylin but instead come from Turbosquid or any other source, we will post a public apology and unban him. Hell, I'll even send him a fruit basket. All we need is proof - that's what we go by in cases like this. If he doesn't provide the proof, I'd say that's pretty clear that it is indeed stolen and he just refuses to admit it.
(Edited to clarify grammar - too many "him"s in the mix. And also to respond to Inge. Hi Inge!)
|15th Sep 2010, 01:12 PM||#12|
While we may not be representative of the entire Sims community, here on MTS we have what are generally considered much stricter rules for custom content uploads, and here, if somebody uses a turbosquid mesh and uploads it, we do require them to state where they got it from, a link etc. This is why all of joninmobiles uploads as indicated by HP have been modified to include the mesh credits. All of these uploads basically left a bad taste in our collective minds when dealing with joninmobile, but in and of themselves where not cause for the banning.
With regards to the real reason for this ban - stealing Maylins mesh. If, indeed, the mesh was entirely joninmobiles work (as he has claimed on his TSR page), then why would he ask TSR to remove it? And why only now, when it has been pointed out that it's obviously stolen? This is not the action of an innocent, but indeed, of somebody wanting to cover his tracks. Obviously he could say it's "causing drama", but if a creator really did have thier own work up, you can be sure they'd fight tooth and nail to prove it's not stolen. He flat out told leesester in the TSR thread that he was being "falsely accused", but we have never falsely accused him of anything - all of our accusations have been right on the money. And besides, the mesh and texture are obviously stolen (extensive analysis by staff as HP pointed out lef to this fact), so the point there is that it was knowingly uploaded, even after he asked Maylin if he could convert and she said "No".
So, to sum up, the following actions led to this ban:
We have given him a lot of chances - more so than most - not just in terms of linking and crediting, but also in day to day dealing with uploads in the queue, and afterwards. We even put him on a special type of upload restriction when we found him to be uploading too many poor quality items - indeed, he is the *only* person to have ever gotten special treatment from the upload moderators in this way. To my mind, it is more the end of a long road - one where we have tried to help him with his uploads, both quality wise and otherwise, but unfortunately, it seems that popularity from the masses is more important than respecting another creators explicit wishes, and this is where we have to say goodbye.
I wish joninmobile all the best on the other sites, and I hope that he takes away a valueable lesson from all of this, especially in his dealings with other creators and with regards to respecting both thier rules and the rules of the site on which he is uploading. The Sims community may seem large, but it's a small world out there, and please rest assured we did as much as we could to try and work with this situation.
Tumblr - Yes, I have a blog. :)
<Corsix> Why 'mod the sims 2' when you can mod 'mod the sims 2'?
Story books are full of fairy tales, of Kings and Queens, and the bluest skies.
|15th Sep 2010, 01:30 PM||re: the... #13|
Delphy, HP, Inge, and Maylin,
I appreciate your point of view. I am an avid collector of Maylin's always high-quality creations and need I say how much Inge is revered and respected.
However, from where I am I see a different side of Jon.
He has been incredibly patient with me.
He has been kind when there was no reward.
He has encouraged my efforts and taught me so much.
He has even made me feel important and useful.
I was going through a time of deepest grieving when he took me under his wing.
He and Michelle have been my nearly constant companions.
He makes me laugh with him and at him.
Michelle and I abuse him terribly (but with love) while we work and chat on skype.
I hope you understand why I would defend him.
I am not trying to manipulate with smarmy, mushy stuff. These are my honest thoughts and feelings.
You have bent over backwards to answer my inquiries.
Sincerely yours, Nonni
|15th Sep 2010, 01:45 PM||#14|
Nonni, I understand. It's good to stick by your friends. And I do really appreciate that even though he is your friend and I know it can be easy to just leap to a friend's defense blindly because you care about them... that you have been kind and courteous and tried to see things from our point of view. I'll admit, I was afraid this thread would turn into a silly kerfuffle at first (not because of your tone, just because, well, stuff like this can get heated quickly) and I really appreciate you being so graceful and cool about it and hearing us out.
|15th Sep 2010, 01:58 PM||re: ... #15|
Well, you are very kind to say so. I may be old but I do see that your site does set a high standard and I have observed a very professional standard in most of the site issues attended by staff. Even in posts that edge towards heat it is usually done with a "tongue in cheek" or humorous slant.
But, enough from me, I have said my piece. Thanks for listening.
|15th Sep 2010, 03:56 PM||#16|
I really feel bad that Jon would do this to his friends and the community.
I had no idea the borg cube texture was not his own until I read this thread, so pretty much that whole creation can not be called his own. I have helped him with several of his creations, one of which is a dinosaur he has claimed to be his own mesh when in fact it had not, this upset me enough to no longer want to help him with his creations.
It's one thing to forget to post where you got a mesh, but to outright claim it as your own is just plain wrong. I myself have downloaded several meshes from the 3d mesh site of unknown authors, and I do sometimes forget to post that, but I do state it in my policy, and I would certainly never claim I created a mesh myself when in fact it belonged to someone else.
Honesty is always the best policy and I have found Jon is not always honest. To outright lie about a creations is just plain stupid.
I have looked at both Maylin's and Jon's versions and they are both identical. Now the version of Jon's that I checked does not actually have Maylin's texture in it, it is, however, apparent he used it to create his mask, overlay, multiplier and secular. In all fairness I have not downloaded all of the versions on turbosquid, but none of them seem to be exactly the same as Maylin's, especially the very top section.
I hope and pray Jon will come out and apologize to Maylin and the community for what he has done.
|15th Sep 2010, 06:47 PM||#17|
So far I had a good opinion of Jon, he was kind and generous and I'm thankful he tought me how to do default replacements - so I was quite surprised about him being banned, for stealing at that. Learning about this behaviour truly saddens me. I'd rather not believe it but the equality of the textures is undeniable.
|15th Sep 2010, 10:04 PM||#18|
Meet Me In My Next Life
Join Date: Oct 2007
Words of Samuel Smiles ( Author ) " We learn wisdom from failure much more than from success; we often discover what will do, by finding out what will not do and probably he or she who never made a mistake never made a discovery."
Words of my most beloved Grandmother Mollie who is at rest. "Everyday there are lessons to be learn on our path in life, once learn move on." Hopefully this is a learning experince for not only joninmobile but for all creators.
"Nothing in life is a Surprise it just happen to come your way at the time".
|15th Sep 2010, 10:29 PM||#19|
|15th Sep 2010, 10:33 PM||#20|
wow n_n thats lovely
|15th Sep 2010, 11:03 PM||#21|
I want to be the first to apologize to Jon for this, as I too believed he had used Maylin's creation.
Please see the following link it is exactly the same mesh and texture used in both Maylin's and Jon's, but in 3 different forms. Click Here
Credit to Jon for finding the link.
I feel this was an attempt to create evidence, but I now see this to be very poor evidence, and take back my apology.
|15th Sep 2010, 11:10 PM||#22|
Who is Boris and what does he have to do with this?
|15th Sep 2010, 11:25 PM||#23|
Rebecah, if that Tardis was indeed posted on TurboSquid, in all likelyhood it was also stolen from Maylin. Look at the dates. Maylin's Tardis was posted 16th Jan 2009. That's LONG before the blog entry which was supposedly posted April 5, 2010, yet the downloadable file on box.net was posted today. In fact, all the files inside the on box.net were also modified TODAY. Pretty suspicious, I'd say. Not to mention the fact that the .png included in that box.net file is messed up. Notice the blue background bleeding into the signs and other areas that are pristine on Maylin's original?
Hate to say it, but looks like this "Boris" person - whoever they may be - is trying to invent evidence.
|15th Sep 2010, 11:26 PM||#24|
I don't know who Boris is and I am a little suspicious of this, as this is the only thing posted on his blog.
I also see the files happen to be dated with today's date. I know Jon's friends want to believe him but this is a little suspicious.
I must have been posting when fanseelamb was posting...I do agree something is not right, and I think you hit the nail on the head. Someone was trying to create evidence, but totally did it wrong.
I notice the image is from a shot in Milkshape, I highly doubt anyone on turbosquid uses Milkshape to mesh.
|15th Sep 2010, 11:29 PM||#25|
Erm... why is that post labelled as being from April when the post URL states that it was posted this month?
Why was the post edited at one minute past midnight on the 16th of September 2010 my time, aka half an hour ago?
Why is the turbosquid creator's name not listed - surely people are going to for "billybobjoe TARDIS model", not "turbosquid TARDIS model"?
And why was that image uploaded at 23:17 on the 15th of September my time, a.k.a. an hour and a quarter ago?
"On the page, punctuation performs its grammatical function, but in the mind of the reader it does more than that. It tells the reader how to hum the tune." - Lynn Truss, Eats, Shoots and Leaves