A petition for the release of Official modding tools, for the Sims 3.

[Klldarkness]

I've been an avid player of the Sims, for roughly eleven years today. I've watched the modding community go from learning something new, in the sims 1, to watching masses of quality releases for the Sims 2, to this. I know how well some of our modders work. I know that if EA's Sims 3 wasn't so damn hard to mod, we'd have many more mods out by now.

So, i'm starting this petition. All i need is you to write your name, whether real, or Forum name, and a couple sentences about why you believe Modding tools should be released. I will be sending a link to this thread to EA if, and when, we get atleast 500+ people to sign. If your not sure if you want to sign, just imagine that awesome thing you want in the sims 3, that no one can create for you. With tools we could.


Billy Turner

I believe Modding tools for the Sims 3 should be released, so we can bring true re-playability to our worlds, as we did with the sims 2. EA, you have made it hard, almost impossibly hard, to do anything in your game. You stated yourself that the Sims is a community. But we, are divided, between those who like what you have done, and those who don't. Give US, the ability to fix what we feel are YOUR mistakes, and we might just buy the Sims 4. We play games on the PC because they can be modded to make them better, or better looking, in our own eyes. Don't let your game die an ugly duckling, when with the proper upbringing, it could be a golden swan. Thank you.

[HystericalParoxysm]

EA generally uses professional level tools like Maya to create their meshes - they cannot "release" that sort of thing because they don't own it. They may have their own in-house tools to do things like objects, but they're not going to be in any kind of form that would be useful to the general user as they will likely be WAY over the general user's head. Besides - there already ARE modding tools available: S3PE, S3OC, TSRW, CTU, DABOOBS, etc. that do make it possible to make pretty much anything you might want to make. Is it hard? Sure, it can be - but EA's tools would not make it any easier - if anything, just the opposite since they would be made for professional 3D artists to use, not hobbyists with no 3D experience.

If you want easy, use TSRW. That's about as easy as it's gonna get. But you still have to create meshes, map them, and create textures for them, and NO program can or should do that part for you - it's not possible to just intuitively figure out exactly how you want it and just... do it that way. There's a reason 3D modelling and texturing is complicated - because, by nature, it -has- to be to get a good result.

Besides, it's not like EA doesn't -know- we want modding tools. Of course they know - but they make money off of creating new expansion and stuff packs (and store items) for us. Why would they give us everything we need to not have to buy anything from them ever again?

[wiz1]

Bethsada relesed mod programs for the TES games, including Skyrim.

[HystericalParoxysm]

Yes, they did. And EA has released CAW and CAP for TS3. CAW is fairly comparable in function to the TES-CS tools released by Bethesda - the primary function of the TES-CS is creating and modifying new areas, though there's some other stuff you can do with it like creating new races - but all of the meshing and textures and all that still has to be created externally - just like with TS3 and any modding tools already available made by the community.

Skyrim isn't out yet though so I don't know how there'd be modding tools for it yet.

[wiz1]

Yes, they did. And EA has released CAW and CAP for TS3. CAW is fairly comparable in function to the TES-CS tools released by Bethesda - the primary function of the TES-CS is creating and modifying new areas, though there's some other stuff you can do with it like creating new races - but all of the meshing and textures and all that still has to be created externally - just like with TS3 and any modding tools already available made by the community.

Skyrim isn't out yet though so I don't know how there'd be modding tools for it yet.

They said on the Offical Forums that they would be releasing them, as the "Creation Kit" or something.

[calisims]

LOL, well, 'said they would be releasing' isn't exactly the same as 'have released'.

[game90]

Bethsada relesed mod programs for the TES games, including Skyrim.

Funny, skyrim is scheduled to be released on 11/11/11, that is if there are no delays. We are currently nowhere near November.

[wiz1]

yeah whatever.

[crocobaura]

I think you'd have better luck if there was like a fundraiser and with the money collected you would commission EA to do the "perfect" game for you. No need for a fundraiser if you already have that kind of money, but it is pretty difficult to please that many people.

[Buzzler]

This topic feels awfully familiar...

And EA has released CAW and CAP for TS3. CAW is fairly comparable in function to the TES-CS tools released by Bethesda - the primary function of the TES-CS is creating and modifying new areas{...}Then have a look at the NWN1, NWN2 and Dragon Age tool kits. Folks can make entirely new campaigns with that stuff. Locations, characters, objects, and scripts included. There are modules for NWN1&2 that are on par with their original campaigns. Don't get me wrong; I'm not doing the "BUT I WANT IT!" act, but I don't think that releasing CAW supports the claim that EA actively supports modders.

[HystericalParoxysm]

I didn't mean that they did support modders - just that they have released some tools to do limited stuff and that CAW is roughly equivalent to the TES-CS (The Elder Scrolls Construction Set) and GECK (for FO3) tools released for Bethesda games like Morrowind, Oblivion, and FO3 - allowing users to create and modify areas to their liking, sort of similar to CAW.

I'm -very- familiar with those particular tools as I have modded all of those games. I'm not familiar with the NWN series as much (I played the first one but eh, didn't really grab me) but it sounds to me as if it's a similar kind of thing - allowing the creation of areas and quests (if by modules you mean something like modules in Dungeons & Dragons).

The Bethesda tools do also allow addition of new items and so forth to the game, but all of the meat and bones of that kind of creation is done externally... You do the meshing, mapping, and texturing externally (I think mostly in Blender), make DDS files (whatever program - GIMP, Photoshop, etc.) and then you just use their tools to tell it which mesh and textures to use and how to incorporate it into the game. Its interface is roughly on par, difficulty-wise, with the modding tools we currently have for TS3 like S3OC and TSRW.

Meshing, mapping, and texturing would still have to be done externally for TS3 no matter what tool you use, as EA is not going to make a full-featured 3D modelling and texturing program for users. Anything sufficiently powerful to create -good- models, textures, etc., would be too high powered for the average user to get their heads around, and besides - they don't use any proprietary in-house modelling tool like that. I know from screenshots of the TS2 stuff in progress, they used Maya as of a few years ago, and likely still do today. I don't see EA suddenly turning into Autodesk and recreating Maya for Sims players and releasing it for free so we can make stuff just as good as they can.

All that's really needed to mod the game is something to bridge the gap between meshes/textures/code/etc. and the game itself. We already have that, in multiple flavours, and capable of doing almost everything needed now except new animations (and that seems like it'll be cracked soon). No, it's not been done with much EA support at all - but we seem to be doing just fine without their help, so either way, the OP's petition seems a moot point to me. We can already do pretty much everything, and any EA tool won't be any easier than what we already have, so what's the point?

[smacksim2]

Kind of a minefield, but here goes: I think the point is "It would be awesome if the Sims franchise had streamlined (read 'noob friendly') modding assets released by EA. Animations, Custom Careers (including adding new behaviors, events, opportunities), Custom Adventures (triggers, adventure board, etc..), Animation workshops, and a CAW system that was just about identical with the in-game 'Edit World' function. IE, you could modify the landscape and routing from within the game, rather than going to a separate tool and rebuilding a new world."

Or something like that. And I agree: Yes, it would be awesome. But that just isn't how it is. By accident or design, or likely both, the way Sims is assembled makes it a bit complicated to modify things outside of static objects / xml files. The idea that by petitioning EA they will create and release new tools to build the gameworld seems like a lot of wishful thinking. Maybe in Sims 4, or maybe never seems a bit more realistic. For what its worth though, you can have my 'vote' for EA releasing extensive modding tools, but I personally won't call my vote a petition, more like a letter to the tooth fairy.

Speaking of pipe dreams, I want a Sim City 5 to make worlds with.

[Buzzler]

I'm not familiar with the NWN series as much (I played the first one but eh, didn't really grab me) but it sounds to me as if it's a similar kind of thing - allowing the creation of areas and quests (if by modules you mean something like modules in Dungeons & Dragons).IIRC it's called module when you load it in the game, and the modders call it module. Some of them would better be called campaign, though. NWN1 didn't do much for me, either. NWN2 feels like an entirely different game, though.

Anything sufficiently powerful to create -good- models, textures, etc., would be too high powered for the average user to get their heads around{...}It'd be delusional to expect them to release, or even create that is, tools that let you make objects from scratch without needing any other tools. They could however release tools that streamline the "compiling" of mesh, texture and whatever into the finished package. Modding will never be something that is simple enough that anyone can do it. Houses and sims are completely made in-game, and it still takes a lot of time and learning if you want results that stand out. IMHO learning how to use a tool isn't that much different from learning how to build a nice and usable lot. I don't expect idiot-compatible tools; I don't even believe such a thing is possible. Well, actually, I don't expect anything at all. It would just be nice if they would do ... something.

We can already do pretty much everything, and any EA tool won't be any easier than what we already have, so what's the point?I still hear orangemittens ranting about how difficult it is to make TS3 objects. ;) Hell, they wouldn't even need to release tools. They could release knowledge so modders and especially the tool-makers wouldn't have to spend so much time figuring that stuff out first. And AFAIK GeoStates haven't been figured out for example.

[HystericalParoxysm]

I'll have to check out NWN2.

I think what most people want when they think of "modding tools" is the actual meshing and texturing aspects. That's really a big hurdle for beginners - learning how to mesh something from scratch, mapping, and texturing it is a HUGE undertaking, and not really well documented anywhere. Not nearly as much as the getting-it-in-game part is documented, anyway. Even in TS2, getting it in-game was the easy bit. IMO, it's actually even easier in TS3. And that's the part that would be done by EA, if they did do any sort of modding tools.

I'm not sure what tools orangemittens is using, but when I started making objects for TS3, I was -shocked- at how easy it was to get stuff working in TSRW. I didn't even really need a tutorial (though obviously I'm going to be more advanced at this stuff than the average user since I did modding for TS2) - just a couple things were confusing but easily doable with a quick Google. I about fell out of my chair when I realized how easy it was to add slots and that it has a graphical interface for it that you can just drag the damned thing around. I'm not sure how S3OC/S3PE handle that kind of thing; maybe it's harder that way. Besides some crashing (which, btw, the TES-CS has always done for me too), TSRW was dead easy to use. I haven't used it for stuff like hair and clothes yet, but if it's half as easy at those as it is at objects, I'll be very happy.

I thought Geostates were sorted - at least, I know stuff like the ones in wastebaskets are, as Whiterider had success making them, and TSRW appears to handle them (http://wiki.thesimsresource.com/index.php?title=Geostates).

Some kind of documentation/support from EA would be helpful, yes. I know they did help modders early on with TS2 but then that help dried up. But I can see why they wouldn't release that information, since modders are sort of in competition with EA: if users can get a full EP's worth of content for free from creators, do they really need to buy stuff from EA? Of course some will, but when a great deal of the players of TS3 are teens who rely on an allowance/parents to buy for them, it probably adds up to a significant percentage.

It really comes down to money - why would EA pay their staff to release information that does not benefit them directly? Even getting staff to, say, contribute to a wiki with documentation on file types would be pretty tough to sell to a profit-driven company: how does that provide them with profit, especially since folks capable of doing that documentation are going to be in high demand to work on new objects and coding, and aren't exactly going to be cheap to pay to spend a day or a week documenting it in a format usable outside of their project. Heck, we've seen it with the TSRW coders, having to poke them to document stuff on the shared wiki about file types - similar thing, IMO (as their coders are paid, and likely see other modding tools as competition). And I certainly can't see EA paying staff to code a whole modding tool interface that is going to allow users to create things in direct competition to them, their Store, etc., as users seem to want. The amount of time, effort, and money it would take for them to make that (and have to release it for free because you know people would whine and cry if it cost even $5) doesn't seem to make sense from a profit standpoint. CAW is clearly a modification of their own in-house tools (so likely didn't take that long to modify for release), and CAP probably is a somewhat larger modification of a tool they were already using, but doesn't really create competition because really, they don't sell patterns.

[Meteora147]

There's plenty of CAS stuff in the Sims 3. It sort of defeats the purpose of releasing a modding tool when the modding community is bound to make their own meshes or whatever tools they have a disposal. I don't think things are as simple as you would think they are.

[Buzzler]

I'll have to check out NWN2.Don't be pissed at me if you don't like it. ;)

I think what most people want when they think of "modding tools" is the actual meshing and texturing aspects.Yeah, that's not going to happen and just irrational.

That's really a big hurdle for beginners - learning how to mesh something from scratch, mapping, and texturing it is a HUGE undertaking, and not really well documented anywhere.Well, maybe not directly TS3-related, but there are lots of generic tutorials about that out there. When I made some objects for Kotor1&2, I had no problem finding sources to learn it from.

Not nearly as much as the getting-it-in-game part is documented, anyway. Even in TS2, getting it in-game was the easy bit. IMO, it's actually even easier in TS3. And that's the part that would be done by EA, if they did do any sort of modding tools.Hmm, maybe I should finally get into it. I still have some stuff planned that would benefit from custom meshes.

I'm not sure what tools orangemittens is using, but when I started making objects for TS3, I was -shocked- at how easy it was to get stuff working in TSRW.Uh, TSRW is actually a big no for a lot of people. Me included. I wouldn't poke that thing with a stick.

Some kind of documentation/support from EA would be helpful, yes. I know they did help modders early on with TS2 but then that help dried up. But I can see why they wouldn't release that information, since modders are sort of in competition with EA: if users can get a full EP's worth of content for free from creators, do they really need to buy stuff from EA?If the EAxians actually fear the competition from modders, they're either inept or damn' cowards. Maybe they couldn't sell the same thing in a different form again and again, but if they don't manage to outperform the modding community on EAxian turf, they have a serious issue on their hands.

[HystericalParoxysm]

Eh, TSRW ain't that bad. I don't think it'd be all that useful for the kind of stuff you do anyway - it's more for addon content rather than mods (I don't think it does actual mods at all).

I know a lot of people don't want to use it just on principle and I get that... But once I knuckled under and drank the kool-aid, I gotta say, I really do like it. It's very user friendly, easy, and does most things in a fairly non-stupid and intuitive way. It crashes a LOT, but it generally asks you if you want to save first, which is a little lulzy.

In any case, it didn't crash my computer, kick my cat, or kill my family, and it does what it's supposed to - and if you're -really- paranoid you can tell it not to go online and block it with a firewall.

It is a -very- easy way to get objects, at least, working in the game. Maybe if you're doing something super exotic, it might be more difficult, but for the couches and tables I've made with it, it was dead simple. Which is good from a not-super-savvy user perspective.

And indeed, there are tutorials on lots of the other aspects of meshing/texturing online - it can be hard for many folks to know what will be an applicable tutorial to what they're trying to do, though. Searching is a skill too, and unfortunately, not one that many people have. Whether those sorts of people should be bothering with modding though, well..... I'll be nice and move on. ;)

I don't think EA necessarily views modders as -direct- competition, but there is -some- competition. After all, they do pour a lot of time, money, and effort into creating the Store. If users can create objects just as good quite easily and do things in similar style, what reason do other users have to buy from the Store? They can get as good or better for free, so why bother? I think it's more about the time/money/effort needed to create a modding tool though, with no incentive to them. Modding is pretty good for the game in general (I know I wouldn't bother getting every EP/SP unless it was for modding) but why the heck should they bother when we'll sort pretty much everything out eventually by ourselves anyway?

[Buzzler]

Eh, TSRW ain't that bad. I don't think it'd be all that useful for the kind of stuff you do anywayAs far as I'm concerned, script modding is already as simple as it gets. There's Reflector to study the game code, Visual Studio to write code, S3PE to build packages... Updating existing STBL resources with new strings is a bit of a pain. Not difficult, just mindless and time-consuming. Digitalchaos has a tool that copies the strings from a source STBL to all the others, but it overwrites the existing entries. Maybe I'll ask Peter if he might be willing to add something to Jonha's String Tool for that. But mostly, I'm good.

I don't think EA necessarily views modders as -direct- competition, but there is -some- competition. After all, they do pour a lot of time, money, and effort into creating the Store. If users can create objects just as good quite easily and do things in similar style, what reason do other users have to buy from the Store?If the stuff offered at the Store is no different than what modders do, what's the point of the Store anyway? I for one would like to see the EAxians get a little more pressure. Maybe they would have to make stuff with actual gameplay value then. Right now, they obviously can't even be arsed to properly flag all their stuff.

Modding is pretty good for the game in general (I know I wouldn't bother getting every EP/SP unless it was for modding) but why the heck should they bother when we'll sort pretty much everything out eventually by ourselves anyway?Because the community is what makes the Sims franchise so successful, and that "You'll figure it out." attitude (actual quote) just pisses me off.

[crocobaura]

Maybe for Sims 4 they'll give us an object builder like the one used in My Sims. :P