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Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#1 Old 17th Aug 2012 at 3:54 PM
Default Mesh seam visible at the waist of a jeans mesh even after fixing tangents
I'm being a bit of a detective here - it has always bothered me that bottom meshes for adult (and elder) females exported fomr TSRW as .wso file had a visible seam at the waist after reimporting and the skin textures would not match up properly. Seems like the .wso format somehow alters the mesh so that the seam appears. To test it, I exported a basegame bottom mesh from TSR Workshop and without even opening it in Milkshape, I imported it back in - and the seam was visible.

Now Cmar made the wonderful mesh tangent fixing tool and it helps with the skin alignment. The skin of a tsrw mesh now shows up aligned after fixing them with Cmar's tangent fixer. The visible seam - a very fine line - however, is still present. I checked vertices and normals of my mesh - I couldn't find any mismatches there. I copied them from the nude bottom mesh. I would like to know what causes the seam and if there is a fix for it. Since I made everything I could think of - aligned vertices and normals and fixed the tangents - I don't know what else could be done.
If you want to test this, you can download my Stylish Comfort Jeans . I fixed that with the tangent tool, yet the visible line is still there.

On the particular jeans mesh, the morphs and bone assignments were made using Cmars MeshToolKit. This is just additional information. As I said, the seam also appears on unaltered basegame meshes.

Any ideas are welcome
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Forum Resident
#2 Old 17th Aug 2012 at 4:36 PM
Have you tried not using TSRW?
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#3 Old 17th Aug 2012 at 6:04 PM
Quote: Originally posted by omegastarr82
Have you tried not using TSRW?


Not consequently. I know this is an issue that arises specifically with TSRW, but TSRW has some perks that CTU doesn't have, like easily adjustable bump maps, the newest categories, all morphs included in the .wso file and so on. That's why I like using TSRW. I love and hate it simultaneously
If someone would write a tutorial on how to add the newest clothing categories and bump maps with S3PE (or point me in the right direction how to do that), I would consider using CTU and S3PE as main tools. Although then there would be complaining from those who only use sims3packs- there are a lot of people in the German community who prefer sims3packs. I prefer packages, though
Sockpuppet
#4 Old 17th Aug 2012 at 6:26 PM
There never has been a perfect fit on the seams, not with CTU or TSRW(both use a plugin designed by Wes)
I dont know about Blender, haven't tried it.
The vertice on the seam will always glitch with EA's default top or bottom.(custom top and bottom do work tho, maybe the teen screenshot in your thread wears a custom top?)

Texture seams however can be fixed by using Cmar's Tangents tool and editing the UVmap
Bumpmaps are indeed a problem when using S3OC as the links in the GEOMS dont get updated.
There are several packers arround that can turn a package into a sims3pack
Forum Resident
#5 Old 17th Aug 2012 at 7:40 PM
Adding the bump map in CTU isn't hard, you just have to remember that you can only do it once. Get the original bumpmap from your clone or use S3PE to open fullbuild0 to get it. I would suggest doing the bumpmap last, that way you can make your own using your own textures to make one. Then add it when your adding your meshes.
For the categories those are a click away with s3pe, in the CASP file. I will give you the morphs though, those are a big pain in the ass to get to, not really but I'm lazy. You can either get the mesh name from s3pe/s3oc/CTU and open the fullbuild0 (or whichever one they're in) in S3PE to get them. Or make a clone with S3OC and use Cmar's mesh tool kit to turn the BGEO formats into GEOM formats. You get a much better understanding of what is what using everything other than TSRW, which also kills the muscle definition slider BTW.
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#6 Old 18th Aug 2012 at 7:21 PM
Thanks to both of you!
So I understand there really is no fix for the seams, then.
I used a basegame mesh (tied blouse) for the teens in my jeans screenshots. Weird that the seam is not noticeable there.

I will do my next bottoms with s3oc, CTU and S3PE and see if it's worth changing tools
Sockpuppet
#7 Old 18th Aug 2012 at 9:03 PM
It wont change a thing, i always used those tools in the early days.
I did make a fix for it on one of my files but its alot more work.
I basicly copied the bottom row of a nude top and attached it to the seam of the bottom.
The top roe of vertice from that new piece i scaled a bit smaller
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#8 Old 19th Aug 2012 at 9:26 AM
Quote: Originally posted by BloomsBase
It wont change a thing, i always used those tools in the early days.
I did make a fix for it on one of my files but its alot more work.
I basicly copied the bottom row of a nude top and attached it to the seam of the bottom.
The top roe of vertice from that new piece i scaled a bit smaller


Are there tools that do not create that seam? S3OC perhaps? With what tools are you working currently?
Good idea to make top and bottom overlap a bit.
Sockpuppet
#9 Old 19th Aug 2012 at 9:49 AM Last edited by BloomsBase : 19th Aug 2012 at 10:04 AM.
Maybe s3OC, S3PE with Blender and Blender plugin but i doubt it.
As far as i know CMO used Wes his code to create the Blender plugin.
I used the fix on few of the default replacement meshes, they are on SS2(username base1980)

I am using TSRW, S3PE plugin for TSRW, S3PE and Cmar's Tangents fixer.
When i finish a outfit with TSRW i open the GEOM(using TSRW's project contents) in s3PE.
I export the GEOM and fix it with Cmar's tangents tool, import it back in s3PE/TSRW and save as sims3pack

I only used CTU for getting the instance numbers of default textures i wanted to use.
Copy and pasting the CTU key works in TSRW, but since i wrote those down i no longer use CTU.

key:00B2D882:00000000:972952e0d3631f66---blancnormalmap
key:00B2D882:00000000:A4D80FB45AE9066B---burned(objects)
key:00B2D882:00000000:937C71E144222C2C---drop shadow atlas(objects)
key:00B2D882:00000000:34CC2DBA7857B5CB--32x32greyMultiplier
key:00B2D882:00000000:646B487723D17864---tinymask
key:00B2D882:00000000:8D432E599199B478---fullbodypartmask
key:00B2D882:00000000:C97796EF16FC1CD9--bottompartmask
key:00B2D882:00000000:7FF3C2CE4435EAA1--toppartmask
key:00B2D882:00000000:90DE6DB90E35FEB7---clothingambientblanc
key:00B2D882:00000000:8D432E599199B478---partmask
Ms. Byte (Deceased)
#10 Old 19th Aug 2012 at 3:35 PM
I'm currently working on a default replacement female nude top and running into exactly the same problem - that tiny mesh gap at the waistline in the same place. I've checked positions, bones, and normals til I'm blue in the face, ruled out morphs (which have their own problems) and it only appears with adults. It did not appear with any of the male nude bottoms I've worked with.

What I'm doing is a straight replacement of the mesh and morphs using Milkshape and S3PE so I don't think it's a problem with the tools.

Bloom, putting in a tiny overlap is a good idea. Glad to know I'm not the only one getting this problem!

Edit: When I get home tomorrow I'll take a look at the positions that get exported from Milkshape. Possible there's some kind of rounding problem or something in the exporter.
Ms. Byte (Deceased)
#11 Old 21st Aug 2012 at 10:00 PM
Found the problem. When a mesh is exported from Milkshape, the exporter rounds off the bone assignments. Normally this doesn't cause any visible change, but apparently in a few cases it makes the vertices on each side of a seam move apart enough in normal animations to cause that little gap.

I've been able to fix it by copying bone assignments from the original mesh (requires a not-yet-released version of Toolkit to do it correctly) and I'm working on a tool specifically to match bones at seams which should be more useful for modified meshes. I'll post again when that's done.
Sockpuppet
#12 Old 21st Aug 2012 at 11:43 PM
Quote: Originally posted by CmarNYC
Found the problem. When a mesh is exported from Milkshape, the exporter rounds off the bone assignments. Normally this doesn't cause any visible change, but apparently in a few cases it makes the vertices on each side of a seam move apart enough in normal animations to cause that little gap.

I've been able to fix it by copying bone assignments from the original mesh (requires a not-yet-released version of Toolkit to do it correctly) and I'm working on a tool specifically to match bones at seams which should be more useful for modified meshes. I'll post again when that's done.


very nice find Cmar!
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#13 Old 21st Aug 2012 at 11:57 PM
Quote: Originally posted by BloomsBase
very nice find Cmar!


That's an understatement - I LOVE YOU!!! :lovestruc
Thank you so much for looking into the problem and finding a solution!
Ms. Byte (Deceased)
#14 Old 22nd Aug 2012 at 2:10 AM Last edited by CmarNYC : 22nd Aug 2012 at 11:09 PM.
Thanks! Although I'm doing it for my own project too. I've attached the current version of Toolkit, with the seam-bones tool in the Bone Tools tab. It only works on GEOM meshes, and I want to add the ability to work on TSRW meshes before I upload the official new version.

This fixed my adult CC nude female top and the morphs for the elder version, but strangely enough I have a gap at the waist for unmorphed teens now which stays the same in the morphs. Oh well, tomorrow is another day!

Edit: The teen gap was because I was using a teen nude bottom which had been edited and had the same problem. Fixed now.
Attached files:
File Type: zip  MeshToolKit_1_1_0_1.zip (173.0 KB, 30 downloads) - View custom content
Test Subject
#15 Old 11th Sep 2012 at 11:04 AM
He there,

I hope it's ok to hijack this thread, but
after having reassigned joints of the EA supernatural tutu skirt mesh in Milkshape (because the original EA skirt (!) causes awfully glitchy legs with sitting (not so skinny) sims) I've encountered the same problem with the seam and it thankfully got away (after having used the meshtoolkit functions "match bones at seams" and "fix tangents", but there still is another texture seam, that even doesn't go away when muscle definition slider is set to zero. I don't know what to do about it.
Everything is fine so far, but the "texture seam". Is there anything I could do about it?

It is worthy to know, that even in EA's original tutu skirt there is the same seam (!).
Such nice skirt, but so bad "texture seam".
Screenshots
Sockpuppet
#16 Old 11th Sep 2012 at 1:19 PM
if it still shows a seam after using Cmar tangent fixer(TSRW integrated her fix) then there must be a mismatch between the top and bottom.
Extract the nude top uvmap and apply it as material on the skirt bottom in Milkshape, you should see diffrences on the seams uvcoordinates

Another possibility is that the seam is correct but light or material settings cause a diffrent display.
Sometimes another shader is used but also check if the skirt has its own clothing ambient texture(some outfits have)
Test Subject
#17 Old 11th Sep 2012 at 6:09 PM
Do you mean something like shown in the attached picture (uv map exported with LithUnwrap). It seems ok as far as I can tell?!
Concerning the clothing ambient, there is no such texture (only a small white box in tsr Workshop).
And how to check/compare material, light or shader settings?
Screenshots
Sockpuppet
#18 Old 11th Sep 2012 at 9:01 PM
yup, you did it correct.
The seam does match so it must be something else.

I doubt if its the material settings, they are usually the same for all.
the shader you can check under the meshcomments(EmbeddedType or with s3PE(open the GEOM through the grid, search through resources)

The top in your screenshot is a EA default top?
Ms. Byte (Deceased)
#19 Old 11th Sep 2012 at 10:42 PM
Possibly it's the normals? You could try the Vertex / Copy Normal Data tool on the skirt's vertices at the waist to match them to the top.
Test Subject
#20 Old 12th Sep 2012 at 8:21 AM
@BloomsBase:
I've attached a zipped textfile with the lod1 geom comments of both files (_afBottomEP7Tutu_4DCE2023 and afTopNude_E5A9A3D9). The top from my screenshot is original EA.
Do you see any relevant difference in the "shaderdatalists"? For example shininess is different.

@CmarNYC
I'm trying out your method at the moment, but as far as I can tell, the seam vetrices of the top are identical to the bottom ones (in milkshape). So I hope that it only may be the normals, which cause the visible seam.
Attached files:
File Type: zip  Shader Comparison.zip (1.6 KB, 11 downloads) - View custom content
Sockpuppet
#21 Old 12th Sep 2012 at 8:51 AM Last edited by BloomsBase : 12th Sep 2012 at 10:47 AM.
Shaders are the same, i dont know.....
Again, is the top in your screenshot a default one?(and not one of my replacements...)
Try a bikinitop instead!
Test Subject
#22 Old 12th Sep 2012 at 9:35 AM
Hmm, even the vertex normal copying in milkshape didn`t help. Fot this I only used the normal EA TopNude cloned with S3OC from the normal ea package. The tutu skirt file was also simply cloned with S3OC from the supernatural package file. It's a problem that EA has created with this skirt (alongside other glitches (with the leg morphs)), because without changing anything and using their file, its the same problem.
Screenshots
Sockpuppet
#23 Old 12th Sep 2012 at 10:47 AM
Try a blanc normalmap

you might want to try cloning a basegame outfit and replace meshes and textures
Test Subject
#24 Old 12th Sep 2012 at 3:25 PM
Ok, I will try it out and thanks to both of you for your help :-)
Field Researcher
#25 Old 12th Nov 2012 at 7:04 PM
Quote: Originally posted by BloomsBase
It wont change a thing, i always used those tools in the early days.
I did make a fix for it on one of my files but its alot more work.
I basicly copied the bottom row of a nude top and attached it to the seam of the bottom.
The top roe of vertice from that new piece i scaled a bit smaller


I'm having that blasted waist seam issue now, but my issue is with a top. I made the offending item in TSRW. When it was complete, I exported the GEOM's with s3pe, ran them through the Fix Tangent and Match Bones ar Seams tools in toolkit, and then put them back into the package. There is still a seam at the waist. Before I do what you've suggested here, I want to be clear on just what it is I'm doing!

1) Copy the top row of faces from a nude bottom and add them to the bottom of my mesh.

2) Scale the bottom row of vertices a bit smaller. How much is "a bit"?

Once that's done, redo all morphs (basically start over -- except for the textures). Fix normals, blah blah blah. Is there anything else I need to do? Those seams drive me nuts!
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