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Alchemist
#76 Old 11th Nov 2009 at 1:32 AM
Yes...the days of Khan are over.

“It is not sufficient that I suceed - all others must fail.”

“The greatest happiness is to vanquish your enemies, to chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth, to see those dear to them bathed in tears, to clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters.”

Genghis Khan quotes: http://thinkexist.com/quotes/genghis_khan/

And some of us don't appreciate the attitude.

Sorry...it was that whole lamentation of their women thing that got me going

OM
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In the Arena
retired moderator
#77 Old 11th Nov 2009 at 2:25 AM
Quote: Originally posted by teko
@dylanw
Contact me privately to get the test BETA Version 0.9 of Workshop where we have now unique IDs for imported packages.

@S3PE users
What's the advantage of using this tool for object creation other than for modding? I'm not up-to-date regarding this and I'd like to know.
S3PE allows me to tweak anything - even those that I don't understand the function of.
Developers' and users' attitude mainly. I always applaud the open source methodology: better support and expansion from developers and users who are open and not have an "us versus them" attitude. Plus as evidenced here, out of the posters on this forum, who gets offered to beta test? What is the criteria to be a Beta Tester? An openly worshipfulsupportive show in public forums FOR the tool? How is that, then assuring to its users that comprehensive objective tests were conducted? And not just by Yes-men/women?

Quote: Originally posted by Inge Jones
You sound like you're determined to see this as a competition

Quote: Originally posted by teko
@Inge
I see it as a comparsion of features which might lead, I must admit, into some sort competition. Which again leads to supreme performance for both parties and results in better tools.

Quote: Originally posted by WesHowe
... I notice that the game has been out since June, and S3PE has been out since June. Others are still promising delivery of features Real Soon Now.

Quote: Originally posted by orangemittens
The whole point, for me anyway, is exemplified by the way that Teko and Inge have approached this discussion. Inge talks about users benefitting by multiple models for meshing out there and Teko, excuse me for being honest here, has, on several occasions, made snarky remarks designed to belittle the work of others and has presented a really hard sell for the TSR tool. Inge talks about flexibility and Teko talks about picking one over the other. Inge talks about everyone being able to have access to things that work well while Teko talks about this like it's a competition that should drive one group or the other out of the game. It's an attitude issue.

I prefer to work with tools made by people who are watching and listening...who are available for questions and who deal with those questions in a patient, friendly manner. I don't want to sit in the drive-through being told what to order...and that seems more the TSR way IMO. Again, IMO. Not arguing...just sayin'.

Quote: Originally posted by WesHowe
I think there is a place in the community for their Workshop, but they are overselling it as the end-all for modding needs. ....
It is game modding, not war.


The above posts are exactly the reason why MTS is my Sims site of choice. There is a healthy discussion and debate atmosphere here. Not every thread about TSR ends up in TSR-bashing which is something I cannot say over at TSR where any mention of MTS might be gone the next hour or day due to whatever issue the moderators had with the post.

Plus, as a player outside of the circle of the prominent modders in the Sims community, I have seen threads in forums all over the place where there is evidence of these modders openly contributing their findings and I have yet to see TSR's contribution to this effort as they had promised.
TSRW has been alluded to as THE tool for CC creation even before TS3 was released and here we are with the first EP almost upon us and the tool is still in Beta, while modders all over the world have had countless uploads done with S3OC+S3PE/Postal, which I might add do not contribute to the CC removal nightmare that the Sims3Pack format causes.

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt when they say that attitudes and the approach taken in the past will be different, but sad to say, I have yet to see the evidence of this. Especially, when all the owners and supporters of TSR ever try to do (and are still doing) is lord the TSRW tool over any other as if that is the best and only solution out there.
Comparison and competition is always good as it prunes off the bad and prominently showcase the best, but the choice must be at the hands of the users - not the makers of said tools.

Ok, off my soapbox now.
Alchemist
#78 Old 11th Nov 2009 at 3:14 AM
Quote: Originally posted by orangemittens
Sorry...it was that whole lamentation of their women thing that got me going


I was half remembering it from Conan the Barbarian. I think it was the first dialog from the future governator, midway through the movie... prior to that point, he made do with sheer bulk.

If you like to say what you think, be sure you know which to do first.
Alchemist
#79 Old 11th Nov 2009 at 3:21 AM
I agree Ella.

This whole "contact me privately thing"...phhht...ok, so i'm going to be rude here, but screw that Teko. My opinion is that you should take your exclusive in-group, so high-school thing and go elsewhere. This is an open community so why are you peddlng that sh** here? Sorry to speak my mind so openly but haven't all us adults here had enough of the secret "you get to be special thing"?

A game is supposed to be fun and it's going to be modded by people who can mod and have fun doing it...get over it corporate world.

OM
Alchemist
#80 Old 11th Nov 2009 at 3:33 AM Last edited by orangemittens : 11th Nov 2009 at 5:46 AM.
No!...so I am double posting *again*.

Wes, I never saw that movie. But I can tell you...us smaller people need and appreciate the bulk. But we don't want to be bullied and we want to be appreciated for what we can add to the community.

Again, this doesn't seem to be the TSR way.

OM
Lab Assistant
#81 Old 11th Nov 2009 at 7:54 AM
I see it's not wished to discuss features of our tool. No issue though if you like to use others better.

@orangemittens
We need testers for the development version who can test new features straight away. The so called 'exclusive in-group' is are people from TSR, MTS and other sites which are able to give valuable feedback on the software product regarding bugs.

Minisite

TSR Workshop
A Custom Content Tool for The Sims 3
Warrior Gryphon
site owner
#82 Old 11th Nov 2009 at 8:31 AM
Quote: Originally posted by teko
@Inge
I see it as a comparsion of features which might lead, I must admit, into some sort competition. Which again leads to supreme performance for both parties and results in better tools.


The problem I have of this is that, well, TSRW is essentially a corporate software package, developed by a company to increase said companies market share in a community. Over time, the features do end up being more polished and smoother, as compared to a tool thats done totally in free time, for the love of the game.

I've said many times before that I prefer multiple smaller tools rather than one big one and I am not going to change my mind anytime soon. For me, that viewpoint gives the maximum possible benefit to all people with the exception of the newbies - but lets face it, a large portion of newbie work shouldn't really be uploaded anywhere unless it's really really good.

As newbies learn and evolve, they usually want to get away from tools that hand hold them through every step and every process, and start tweaking things thier own way. This is where a smaller tool that does one thing comes into it's own becuase it's a lot faster to use.

Story books are full of fairy tales, of Kings and Queens, and the bluest skies.
Mad Poster
#83 Old 11th Nov 2009 at 9:58 AM Last edited by EsmeraldaF : 11th Nov 2009 at 10:57 AM.
Quote: Originally posted by teko
We need testers for the development version who can test new features straight away. The so called 'exclusive in-group' is are people from TSR, MTS and other sites which are able to give valuable feedback on the software product regarding bugs.


If that's the case, why not post it in this thread so that those who want to test it can do so, rather than having to do the 'contact me privately' thing?

Quote: Originally posted by Delphy
I've said many times before that I prefer multiple smaller tools rather than one big one and I am not going to change my mind anytime soon. For me, that viewpoint gives the maximum possible benefit to all people with the exception of the newbies - but lets face it, a large portion of newbie work shouldn't really be uploaded anywhere unless it's really really good.

As newbies learn and evolve, they usually want to get away from tools that hand hold them through every step and every process, and start tweaking things thier own way. This is where a smaller tool that does one thing comes into it's own becuase it's a lot faster to use.


As a newbie myself, I first started making cc with version 1.0 of the CTU - the hardcore user-unfriendly, no-thumbnail version - and had great success with it. Some time after that, I became aware of TSR Workshop and tried it - it looked more glitzy and user-friendly, but I didn't find any advantage of it over the CTU, plus it tended to be buggy, crash a lot and I didn't like the fact that it only saved things as Sims3packs.

Hopefully TSRW will have improved by now in the latest release, but at this point, the latest version of the CTU does everything I need to do. Everything I've uploaded here (except my hair meshes and animation mods, made with, respectively, DABOOBS and SmoothJazz) was made with CTU.
Scholar
#84 Old 11th Nov 2009 at 10:09 AM
My only real opinion is basically the same as Inge, mulitiple tools make for more flexible modding. Like I said I've had the new workshop on my desktop for over a week waiting to be installed and haven't done it yet. I too prefer to use tools that have support.

I think this really all boils down to personal preference and with so many tools on the go, we have that choice.

My advice to the original poster would be to try both and see what is the easiest for them to work with, and make that free choice.

@Dylan. I'm well aware of freely used cc. I've already stated on a post here that any patterns I make can be freely uploaded without any form of credit or even a link. I have different rules for other stuff. Not everyone feels the same way though and as long as you act within the TOU of the creator, then that's fine.
Mad Poster
#85 Old 11th Nov 2009 at 10:28 AM
Quote: Originally posted by fluttereyes
I too prefer to use tools that have support.


Yes, support is another issue - when I first started using TSRW, I was having a problem that was preventing me from using it at all: it would crash every time I tried to import my texture files. I posted a query on the TSRW support forums, but never received a reply. Thankfully, in the end I was able to figure out the solution myself. I noticed several other people had posted on TSR about the same problem and no-one had answered them either, so I updated my query with my solution and I only hope those other people saw it.

I've also read comments here from members who have had the same problem with no reply to their problem queries on TSR's forums, so I know I'm not alone (they often come here asking for help after getting no response there).

Whereas, with CTU and S3PE/S3OC, their creators not only respond to problem queries, but they respond quickly and helpfully as well.
Scholar
#86 Old 11th Nov 2009 at 4:28 PM
Esmerelda, you know I'm in complete agreement with you. I know a few people who have said the same thing about seeking support for TSRW and getting nowhere. At least with someone like Inge, she will help you even if you're the stupid one. I can most certainly testify to that and you know, she never seems to mind being asked stupid questions, always helpful.

I wouldn't even try to get support on tsr as I know it just isn't there, it's pretty on a par with EA's official site with that kind of thing.

Support should be the number one consideration for any developer, if you can't support it, then don't make it. Just my opinion of course
Retired Duck
retired moderator
#87 Old 13th Nov 2009 at 4:41 AM
Quote: Originally posted by fluttereyes
Support should be the number one consideration for any developer, if you can't support it, then don't make it. Just my opinion of course

Got to disagree with you there. Unless you're talking about development as a day job (for which one is paid), then making software and tools is about having fun, just as much as drawing or music or sport. The number one consideration shouldn't be providing gratis support for other people, it should be enjoying the challenge and resulting achievement that comes with creation.

You could argue that one shouldn't publish something that they're not willing to support, but I'd still disagree there. I'd rather have an unsupported tool than no tool at all. Ideally, if it's not an officially supported application I'd like to have access to the source code (so I can fix any problems myself) but that's just me.
Scholar
#88 Old 13th Nov 2009 at 6:12 PM
Not all of us can fix the source code ourselves though.

My point was that I choose to use Inge and POeters tools due to the fact that they do support them, I choose not to use TSRW at the moment because they don't support it.

So why use a tool with no support when you can use a tool that does the same thing, with support?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, do they not get paid on TSR for developing this tool? I think they do, yet still it's the people with the free programmes that do it for the fun that are giving good support.
Lab Assistant
#89 Old 13th Nov 2009 at 8:09 PM
Quote: Originally posted by fluttereyes
My point was that I choose to use Inge and POeters tools due to the fact that they do support them, I choose not to use TSRW at the moment because they don't support it.

Sorry, but what's actually the difference between their and our support for the software? We do not grant support via phone, email or private message due to the software product being free for download but we have a whole forum section dedicated to user questions as well a rather complete Wiki about the software product with lots of tutorials. And that's simply a lie telling those user questions don't get answered. We have a team of experienced betatesters which coordinate the answering of new raising questions and talk the issue over with one of the programmers if needed. So I really wonder how come you say this is no support.

Minisite

TSR Workshop
A Custom Content Tool for The Sims 3
One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#90 Old 13th Nov 2009 at 8:40 PM
Are you actually on the programming team now, or become a director of TSR? I thought you were just a user/tester, I am puzzled by you keep saying "we" when you refer to the TSRW.

"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
Lab Assistant
#91 Old 13th Nov 2009 at 9:02 PM
Inge, see the constitution of "we" on the TSRW pages.

Minisite

TSR Workshop
A Custom Content Tool for The Sims 3
˙uʍop ǝpᴉsdn ǝɹ,noʎ 'oN
#92 Old 13th Nov 2009 at 9:22 PM
I don't know about TSRW's support, but I can say that the Jones's have spoiled us. Questions concerning the tools are answered almost immediately. I've seen bugs fixed and updated within 24 hours of them being notified. With this "above and beyond" support, it's no wonder why some might expect this for other programs.
Quote: Originally posted by Inge Jones
Instead of seeing this as a TSRW versus S3PE rivalry, perhaps threads like this could explore which tasks are best in which tool.

"Part of being a mesher is being persistent through your own confusedness" - HystericalParoxysm
| (• ◡•)| (❍ᴥ❍ʋ) [◕ ‿ ◕]
Lab Assistant
#93 Old 5th Apr 2010 at 1:35 AM
I like TSRW. I use it with Milkshape v1.8.5. But I had a problem with the latest version TSRW_RC4_v2. When I exported the .wso file it messed up the bone assignments. That was with the correct plugins too. Had to go back to TSRW_RC4 and use that version plugins.
Pettifogging Legalist!
retired moderator
#94 Old 5th Apr 2010 at 2:12 AM
teko (or anyone else involved with TSRW development): I went to TSR and looked at the TSRW download page more than once, and I was never able to see anything that looked remotely like a support area or forum or wiki. The only thing I could see was a "thanksthisisgreat" thread underneath the download.

Most likely this was because I was a guest, not a member, and I also usually block all scripts by default until I really need them (and then I need to be told that I need them, as in, a noscript section that goes "here is a menu that only JavaScript users can see").

So, if you find that a lot of people are under the impression that there is no support (I don't seem to be the only one, looking at the last few posts here), it might help if it were a little more accessible or even noticeable. I see the point in only allowing registered members to post or download, but if people can't *see* the content that matters to them they have no reason to register in the first place.

Stuff for TS2 · TS3 · TS4 | Please do not PM me with technical questions – we have Create forums for that.

In the kingdom of the blind, do as the Romans do.
Alchemist
#95 Old 5th Apr 2010 at 2:30 AM
Er...Google is your friend.

Try sims resource workshop forum

and get:

http://forums.thesimsresource.com/f...splay.php?f=660


And no, I'm not a member at TSR.

Lol...and maybe the reason they don't post a link is because there's a lot of user-questions/problems posted there in the forum. I guess corporate doesn't want it known their tool isn't perfect.
Lab Assistant
#96 Old 9th Apr 2010 at 1:38 PM
@pbox
Since WS is a free download, no support can be granted, but we have a forum section, which OM just posted before. We have also a wiki about Workshop:
http://wiki.thesimsresource.com/ind...ry:TSR_Workshop
(Unfortunately some pages are not up-to-date due to the software constantly evolving.)
As well an official site for Workshop where you can follow the development and find tutorials:
http://www.thesimsresource.com/workshop/

However, when you're registered, you can download the public beta of the Workshop and when opening it, you'll have a start screen that offers several links for support and help.

@OM
If a forum section is frequently used, it doesn't mean the software is bad. Everyone is welcome to post their question there. It usually gets answered within a day and is mostly solvable.

Minisite

TSR Workshop
A Custom Content Tool for The Sims 3
Pettifogging Legalist!
retired moderator
#97 Old 9th Apr 2010 at 3:09 PM
teko, I didn't mean to say there *is* no support, just that it's not *obvious* (or could be made more obvious, for those who don't already know it). I think I went to the download page from your main page (TSR) > Downloads > Programs > Workshop Public Beta, and I didn't see any sign of a forum or anything there, just that one long Thanks thread. Maybe you could put a link to the official Workshop site there somewhere, that looks useful (and people might be more inclined to download when they see that support exists – if they don't download in the first place, they will never see the start screen).

Stuff for TS2 · TS3 · TS4 | Please do not PM me with technical questions – we have Create forums for that.

In the kingdom of the blind, do as the Romans do.
Lab Assistant
#98 Old 9th Apr 2010 at 3:53 PM
Ok, there's actually a Related Links section at the right, so I suggested to the site managers to fill it with the most important references for support.

Minisite

TSR Workshop
A Custom Content Tool for The Sims 3
Inventor
#99 Old 9th Apr 2010 at 4:23 PM
Thanks for the links Teko and Orangemittens, I finally installed the Workshop yesterday and could use a link to information and tutorials.

I often thought that it would be nice to have a program like the CTU to make objects with, maybe TSRW can fill that wish.
Automatic creation of sunshadows, changing presets, wall cut-outs etc sounds very good.
And that texture tutorial from Cyclonesue is wonderfully detailed.

I know some people here will not agree, but as a creator, I am interested in any free tool that can expand my creating possibilities.
Lab Assistant
#100 Old 9th Apr 2010 at 10:42 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Cocomama
I often thought that it would be nice to have a program like the CTU to make objects with, maybe TSRW can fill that wish.

I'd place my bet on that.

The programmers are working hard to get the remaining limitations out. Here's a little teaser to show what features are coming in a future release:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p7s00s3NRo

Minisite

TSR Workshop
A Custom Content Tool for The Sims 3
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