Of course we saw it. It just didn't happen with the store. It happened with the EPs in TS3. There was a lot of "piggybacking" of EPs, where you were teased with a tiny sample of game play and objects in one EP that--if you wanted expanded-- required you getting a $40 EP. For example, if you loved the celebrity star system in Late Night but felt it was lacking because your sims couldn't really do the type of things that would make someone a star in the first place (like perform), you had to get Showtime to make the most out of LN. If you really loved vampires in Late Night but felt it was lacking in supernatural content, you had to get SN.

Ditto Seasons. Seasons would've been the perfect EP to roll out a whole bunch of summer-related clothing, hair and activities, but you hardly got anything in it. You got mostly winter and fall stuff, but very little summer stuff. You had to get IP to finally get more bathing suits, beach outfits and beach activities to make the most of that pack.

And what about Generations? Couldn't all of those kids and family-oriented objects have been in the base game? Of course.

The most egregious example of them stripping out content to get you to buy a $40 EP was the removal of base game content like the grand piano. The grand piano was a staple of The Sims going back to the very beginning, but you had to buy LN to get it.

Keep in mind that I'm not trying to make a TS3 vs TS4 debate. It's to point out that every time a new IP comes out, people complain about the newer iteration somehow being worse than the previous ones because it had flaws that the previous ones didn't. But as it always turns out, all the sequels had more or less the same flaws but playing out in a different way.

But they don't. Why are valid criticisms nowadays seen as toxic hate-speech?

People "complain" because they're not getting value for their money. You can't seriously tell me with a completely straight face that anyone prefers the stripped down model TS4 provides where you pay $10 on a stuff pack to get one tiny feature. Of which they now have *17* of. The issue with the packs in general has nothing to do with people blindly hating them and thinking what came before is better simply because, as I've been saying over and over. They do it because The Sims team is not providing them what they want, old and new players alike. Take something as insignificant as the toddler ballpit fiasco. It took people actually criticizing the product and EA for releasing something that looked like they made it in 10 minutes for them to do anything about it.

I don't know where this idea that people are stirring up conflict about The Sims is coming from. More drama for the sake of it accomplishes nothing. I certainly don't do it for my health. And I don't do it because I hate TS4 or the people who play it, that would be completely ridiculous. It's a game. I just want a quality product that EA is willing to actually allocate development resources toward. Is that too much to ask? Apparently so.

I do view it as the downfall of my favorite era of the sims: the exchange with all the stories and the forums with contests and role playing etc. it just didn’t translate to TS3. The game is so customizable, but the launcher and website etc. just didn’t hit the same way The Exchange did.
I don’t see it as a downfall any more, though. I’ve always enjoyed it while being fairly critical. Ts4 has definitely shown some light on how bad it can actually be. I think TS2 vs TS3 is more of a trade-off, than it genuinely being worse. You gain and you lose. I can’t really think of much from TS4 that is gained. But maybe in a few years when ts5 pops up, I’ll be praising TS4. That’s a nightmare.

Yeah, well, I will agree that many of the features in Showtime should have been included in Late Night. I even mentioned that before. Especially the singers. That's my pet peeve, I have to admit. But as stand-alone, both packs are still filled with many more features than any Sims 4 pack. And be fair, if you want everything that is in Late Night for Sims 4, you need to get like 5 or 6 DLCs and you still will not have everything. That says a lot about how much content-filled Late Night was, or maybe how little content-filled Sims 4 DLCs are, whatever you want to make from this.


I agree with the clothing in Seasons. Without a doubt, it was the worst pack, when it comes to clothing. But I have to strongly disagree with the summer activities. Yes, it would be great to have the pool slide or the beach towel, but we still got a lot of summer activities in Seasons. We've got ocean swimming, diving board (which, admittedly, should be in the base game, but whatever), though both of these were in the patch that came with Seasons, not in the EP itself. We also got the inflatable lounger, sunbathing and sunburn and also the spontaneous combustion, parasols, water balloon fight, ice cones, football goal, roller skating, new fireworks and sparklers. And we also had hail, which was less impressive and less dangerous than in Sims 2, but it was still there. With all those activities I don't really feel we were cheaped on the summer activities, even if they moved many beach activities to Island Paradise, but those weren't in Sims 2 Seasons either. Actually, Sims 2 Seasons had even less summer activities than Sims 3 Seasons, since ocean swimming was in Bon Voyage and the football goal in Free Time.


Yes, but this debate could go on and on about pretty much any feature. Shouldn't the features in Free Time be in base game Sims 2? Shouldn't weather and seasons be in base game? Shouldn't pets be in base game? See? We could actually go on and on about this kind of debate, but it will lead nowhere.


Actually no, it wasn't. Grand piano was introduced in Livin' Large and reintroduced in Hot Date. Sims 1 base game only contained upright piano. Still, the lack of piano in Sims 3 base game was bad, but nothing that wasn't done before in Sims 2, like with pool tables, which were in Sims 1 base game, but weren't in Sims 2 base game. So, yeah, sad, but nothing new in the franchise.

I'm giving you all of my Benes for that comment!

I didn't say anything about hate speech, and I'm not going to respond to you further because I consider this a troll response.

Have a nice day.

Yeah, no. I have no time for foolishness like trolling. And once again you're implying you were being taken out of context with your comments, but I'm supposed to be taken verbatim. No, you didn't actually say -hate speech- in a literal sense, but what else does "people complaining" said ad nauseum despite it being not true mean otherwise? The fact that you didn't even try to deconstruct any of my actual points and instead chose to focus on the one time I correctly called you out on equating criticism with mindless bashing, shows me that you just wanted a shitstorm to blow up from the start and make me seem insufferable, even though I've defended my stance the entire time with detailed points. Hell, in the post I made directly before that, which you likely didn't even read, I opened that I respectably disagreed with your point. And you have the gall to call me a troll? That was an attempt by you to get in the last word and shut me down like a child, plain and simple.

I'm normally not this way, but I'll just remind that it was you that proceeded to call TS3 a severely stripped down game, then said people have no right to criticize newer entries because it's apparently complaining and that older entries had problems too. None to the same extent mind you and that it's verifiably true that TS4 keeps getting more and more broken. You've done nothing but turn the topic back around on people that don't agree with you. So I'm doing the same.

Have a nice day.

"Hate speech"=hatred against minorities, people of different nationalities, etc. That is EXACTLY what "hate speech" means. "I hate blacks/whites/Muslims/Asians/gays," etc.

You can bluster all you want about what you think hate speech means but the entire world except you and the six other people upvoting your post knows what is meant by hate speech.

What you're doing is engaging in what's known as gaslighting. If you disagree with me, then disagree with what I said. But when you start ranting that I'm accusing you of hate speech (as I'm saying that you hate blacks, whites, gays, etc.) then you are trolling, no question. Because now what's going to happen is that if they skim through this discussion and read your comments, they're going to think I'm some SJW accusing you of being racist, sexist, transphobic, etc. and that's not what I was doing.

BTW, I'm done with this forum. If people can't discuss a video game without becoming unhinged, then what's the point? I got into this discussion because I had some down time in between play sessions, was a little bored and wanted to engage in a healthy debate, but apparently, this is a very serious life-or-death matter to you. As old as I am (and I am old), I'm not going to get sucked into your drama-filled universe getting bogged down in a knock down, drag out fight about the game. Sorry I "triggered" you with my input. So go right ahead with your temper tantrum/emotional meltdown. I will see myself out.

Bye, MTS--it's been real.

Politics aside, who the hell are these people who ever saw TS3 as the downfall of the franchise anyway? This thread has irked me since it first showed up.

@thesims1depot
Sorry, but this debate was healthy debate until you appeared here and turned it to this toxic debate about pretty much nothing. You were behaving like troll since you first entered this debate, not Jathom95. With that said, good bye. Hopefully now that you will not be around, this debate will return to what it was before you tried to ruin it.

I wouldn't worry too much about that user. They've done the same thing on the official boards as well. It seems when someone has a strong opposing opinion, or an opinion they don't like or don't agree with, they revert to the "trolling" accusation. It's probably best to just ignore them from here on in.
Carrying on with the discussion is a good idea, this thread had quite the interesting range of opinions.

I never participated in the TS2 community. I spent most of my time playing the game, and didn't even really discover using CC until a long time after beginning playing the game. It was quite sad that around the time I did notice the community, that it was getting very late on in the series, and almost time for it to move on to TS3 so I never really got to experience the TS2 exchange, or the roleplaying or stories. That exchange and website never really worked well anymore by the time I got around to it.

Edit - I'd also like to know where and who the people are who ( first? ) saw / see TS3 as the series downfall and where that kind of opinion / rumour / whatever got started.
I always thought in the beginning, by people who didn't care for it, was that it was simply seen as a 'not quite worthy' successor to TS2 with plasticine doughy sims, but was somewhat redeemed by the open world. But not really the entire downfall of the series.

TS3 was in a bit of a weird place when it released. 2009 was sort of that beginning point where tech and games were really going up, but with most social media still being in its infancy, I don't think TS3 ever really got lambasted the way TS4 has.

TS2 had a small but vocal base of players who played TS as a dollhouse game, something it does admirably. They don't age until you set them to by playing them, the emphasis on interactions is greater between Sims, and most of the EPs focused on what it could allow the Sims themselves to do instead of affecting the worlds/neighborhoods. People liked the idea of having their Sims play out exactly how they wanted them to with no interference by the game. Which I totally understand, it just isn't how I play. That's also how rotational/legacy play became so popular during TS2's run.

I think most that didn't like TS3 at release in particular, didn't like what it had to offer over TS2. The Sims themselves were just the icing on the cake. But open world and Story Progression in particular were what caused most of them to wash their hands of it. Having huge worlds that your Sims actively walk around and take part in, plus SP actively affecting their lives and possibly making them do things that a rotational player didn't want them to do.

I'd say it was less about being "hated" per se, and being more of a snowball effect. There were enough people who didn't like the concept of the game that it just kind if went from there and gave TS3 the reputation it has today. It really depends on where you frequent overall nowadays, but I still see the occasional "TS3 was nothing but an ugly lagfest where the Sims didn't do anything and I never used CASt or SP anyway so I'm glad TS4 went back to The Sims' roots." Which in turn makes it easier for people who've never even played TS3 to dismiss it entirely and stick with something like TS4, because many are starting with it and having nothing else like it to reference from.

When I first started this thread, it was basically to gauge if TS3 was considered to be still to this day where the series started its downfall, or in light of TS4, if it was simply doing its own thing and wasn't an inherently bad game.

People didn't like sims 3? I stopped playing all other sims games for years because I only wanted to play sims 3. Until now I play sims 1 and 2 again with sims 3. Trying to find all the mods to kill sims 2 corruption and bugs that ruin the game for me is awful and makes me love twallan and nraas even more than I already loved them.

Lol, same. I know they have workarounds, and I know TS3 has its own problems, but I just can't deal with the anxiety inducing corruption these days. If I had an ongoing save that I've had for years suddenly get destroyed because I suddenly forgot to not save an occupied lot to the bin, I'd be done right there. Nope, can't do it.

I have to further your comment, Jathom.

I don't really go on the official forums anymore since there's nothing really keeping me there? The Sims 3 section isn't really as fleshed out or loved on as the Sims 4 section, so I just drop by to visit from time to time. But I do frequent places like here, YouTube, Reddit, and Tumblr, and plenty of people don't fancy TS3 for the reasons you stated. In those areas I hear:

"Open World is overrated."
"StoryProgression is ass."
"The Color Wheel is unnecessary, overwhelming, and overrated."
"The Sims and the worlds are so ugly that I can't play it."
"My computer can't run the game. It's so laggy it's unplayable!"
"My gaming computer can't run the game. The game is just shit."
"You need a supercomputer to run TS3!"
"The Sims are wooden and lifeless."
"Interactions between Sims are boring."
"There's too much to do and not enough substance."

All the time. I see it all the time. These are quite common complaints, and while I do disagree on the top three above things I'm unable to disagree on other things like the Sims being wooden cuz I haven't been able to open up the game and actually play it lately. Although, I admit I am confused about those, "My gaming computer can't run TS3." and "You need a supercomputer to run TS3." comments; like I'm pretty sure your i9-9900K, 2080 Ti with 32GB of RAM and two 2TB SSDs can run TS3 just fine if you take the time to configure everything properly.

I have over 200 mods to prevent corruption and fix bug and longer I play same family more issues show up. I'm not going to win with sims 2 I'm starting to think. I just had to start a new save because my frames started dropping and random lag. I used the debugging tools and reset bunch of stuff which helped only a little. To fix sims 3 I only need couple of nraas mods and I don't get weird lag or frame rate drops. I can play same family for generations and I get bored of the same family before any trouble start. I wish for once sims 2 let me play legacy as long as I want before becoming stupid with bugs and crash. That said, I do not understand why people say sims 3 is so unstable and buggy, did they not play sims 2 at all? Sims 2 has longer loading times too.

I feel like I will play sims 1 and sims 3 in the future.

No one actually plays TS3 anymore. We just say that we do and talk fondly about our games to annoy the other simmers. This game is toast.

The fact that we at NRaas have just reported over 4 million downloads of our mods in the two years we have been on our new site is easily explained. No one needs the mods since they aren't actually playing the game. It's all some sort of sinister plot to use MasterController and Overwatch to...uhm...take over the free world or something? Help me out here, those of you who are responsible for some of the 4 million, are you converting them to bitcoins somehow? Is there a market for useless pre-downloaded TS3 mods on the Dark Web that we don't (and probably shouldn't) know about?

Of course these metrics are not perfect. Not everyone uses mods, not all who do use NRaas, and not everyone has needed any fresh downloads since maybe what they had over two years ago is still fine for them as it's not like new patches and EPs are rolling out anymore. And I guess one wiseguy might have downloaded the mods 3,999,995 times from different IP addresses just to confuse us, so we really only have about 6 unique downloaders but that doesn't seem very likely.

One of the reasons I don't personally hang out on places like Reddit and YouTube (for TS3 anyway) is that I don't feel the need to be surrounded by all that negativity when it's for no real purpose. I prefer to be and am much more comfortable in places where players who actually like the game that I do tend to hang out. And, for me, the official EA forum still satisfies that requirement as does NRaas of course, and this forum at MTS. Thus many of us who feel similarly might be missing the negativity as well as lots of unnecessary arguments, bickering, and troll-baiting with some admittedly genuine concerns sprinkled in here and there because we just really aren't interested in hanging around what could be described as toxic environments.

Hm, mind if I bring another thing up? You hear all the time that mods are the things that are keeping the Sims 4 alive, that people need mods in the Sims 4 in order to play the game at all. And at first I was in agreement, but then I started thinking more and I came to the realization that I use mods as well. Well, I say I "realized" that I use mods but what I mean is that I realized my own hypocrisy.

Pretty much everyone uses mods, whether it be for Sims 1, 2, or 3. I use a lot of Nraas mods, I use mods to fix things like bugs, and I use tuning mods to configure certain annoyances. I mean, heck, I even made a tuning mod just to fix the pet genetics in Sims 3 after 7 whole years because It was annoying me to the point I couldn't take it anymore!

I think the argument is less how many people play with mods and more how many people wouldn't play without them.
I remember back in TS2 and 3 days many sim community's such as on youtube and non mod related sims fourms(ie the official fourms) had a prevaling anti CC, anti mod attitude. The mindframe essentially being that mods were impure and would invariably destroy the game. Playing without them was the "pure" way to play. I remember alot of passive aggressive "I dont play with mods, I love my sims 2 much." statments.
Today that attitude seems to have disappeared entirely. Before where sim tubers rarly used mod in their TS3 let's plays I havent seen a single TS4 let's play without at the very least MCCC.
I know I for one play with many mods from the nrass suit as well as a few other bug, annoyance fixes. However I have played with saves where I didnt use my mods for one reason or another and still enjoyed had fun. But the fact is that I have the choose to enhance and customise my game to my likeing therefore I chose to play with mods.

This is not true or at least was not last time I heard. Probably most players here use them but the vast majority of Sim players use no CC, are not involved in the community, and play straight out of the box games. It is a vocal minority that posts on sites, uses CC, watches videos, etc. I think folks who post on sites tend to forget that. We are not the standard sims players of the millions over the world who play these games.

Last time I saw the estimate it was 5% use CC, are active on sites, etc.

This is along the right idea, but I think it goes a bit deeper as well.

A lot of Sims players tend to be somewhat "afraid" of adding non-EA content to their games. I used to wonder why, but nowadays I equate it with the same mindset that my mother has frequently when something pushes her out of her comfort zone.

The vast majority of people who play TS couldn't care less about EA's business and ethics practices. They may get slightly annoyed if a pack isn't up to snuff, but otherwise will remain silent about it and take what they're given. Along this mindset, you have a lot of people who see EA-sanctioned content as the only way to play because it's simple and easy, and mods and cc are seen as big and scary. EA does the work for you with official content with Origin. Mods, it's all on you.

I can speak from personal experience with other people in my own life that people are often simply scared of things that don't come pre-packaged and ready to use. I'm not being condescending, it's just a fact. In the case of mods, I'd say the issue of having to remember to update them as well as your game when a new patch drops further cements the "mods are big and scary" idea.

You also have to keep in mind that there are many gamers who simply discard a game if for some reason it is not enjoyable. So if they run into that with either Sims version, they are more likely to just drop it for something else then start troubleshooting. Just because they can't be bothered.

Just like people who pre-order games and then play it just once or twice if the game turns out to be a disappointment. I used to try to convince people I know to stop pre-ordering games. But it is no use. Most are simply not bothered about it. They drop it and just buy a new game.

As for TS3. I wish there was a sticky on Steam in the TS3 forums with most about troubleshooting and links to NRAAS website. Somehow I remember there used to be one, but maybe I'm wrong.

Hm, I've never really had any trouble with troubleshooting the Sims 3, or even really needed to, so I thank the Gods for that. Really the only reason my Sims 3 has ever run bad or fucked itself up in the years I've been simming is that my hardware is too weak, and even then it's not like the Sims 3 is unplayable, I can run the game, but I just cannot stand for 15-23 FPS, constant stuttering, and screen-tearing out the ass.

(And here's where I'd put my 3080—the last part I need to complete my sort of overkill desktop—If I could even get my hands on one.)

I wish we could build a functionable Island Paradise world together. I'd do it this summer because that is when I have time.

I dunno about sticky thread, but there's very good performance and bugs guide on Steam that is often linked at in the Steam forum. Besides, Igazor is very active on Steam, helping anyone who needs it and there are other, me included, who try to help and solve issues.

Regarding the rest of your post, yeah, games are becoming new movies. Remember in past people often bought a lot of movies on VHS and later DVDs and Blu-Rays, only to watch them once or twice and then discard them. I myself am guilty with that as well. This is now a thing of past with subscription services like Netflix and I can't tell I miss the past times. We'll see if gaming industry will move to the same subscription model, or if it will stay the same, with people having hundreds games in their Steam, Origin, Epic etc. libraries. I even know people who have games they never played, just because they got them in "convenient" bundle. I personally try to avoid these kind of bundles, but even I have to admit I did use them a few times, like recently on Origin, where I got myself convinced to use their Sims 4 custom bundle creation tool to get the Batuu pack along with Seasons and Laundry Stuff. Yeah, me who swore not to buy anything for Sims 4 ever again, got to persuade by the current sale on Origin to get these three packs that are, probably, the best created for Sims 4 yet. Hopefully, I will not regret it just like I regretted my purchase of Sims 4 Collector's Edition six years ago. But admittedly, right now, instead of playing my new purchase, I try to solve issue with CC that got broken by the recent patch
As for preorders, well, I only did that with Sims 3 EPs and even then only if I was sure I really will like it. I only regretted doing so with Island Paradise and even then only because of the lags Isla Paradiso had, to which I probably added, thanks to my very amateurish edits to the world, which eventually caused even more routing issues Though I have to admit that back in 2013 I almost succumbed to the hype of new SimCity, but I eventually decided against preordering it and wait for reviews and thank goodness I did. It saved me a lot of money and nerves.