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Mad Poster
Original Poster
#1 Old 4th Oct 2020 at 9:27 PM
Default RAM usage reduction for Error 12
So I'm kinda curious if anyone else is doing this besides me? And also if there are creators in here that can verify.

Error 12 is an annoying bug that happens when your RAM usage exceeds a certain amount, in my case when it goes above 3.2GB the game has a hard time saving. The easiest way I resolved it is by turning high detailed lots to 1. However, I noticed before while sifting through CCs, that a lot of creators are not very "efficient" in their textures.

These CCs could be clothes, hair, accessories, or furniture. I haven't looked at furniture yet, but when it comes to clothing and hair, I realized many of them the textures are oversized. Most hair can get away with 512x512, which reduces more than 50% of the RAM usage of a 1024x1024. Certain clothing can also be reduced to 512x512, mostly underwear or small single piece such as a pair of shorts. Shoes can use 512x512 as well, virtually no difference when reduced. However, most clothings, especially fullsize, needs to be 1024x1024 or they will seem fuzzy. I actually found a couple of clothings that uses 2048x2048, which is just a waste of RAM as you will not notice any difference from the standard 1024x1024.

But what I noticed lately was that there are some textures which are completely red or they have a black background. Many creators saved them as DXT5, which is huge. Of all the CCs I have, I noticed Lorandasims is the most efficient and from her creations and some other creators, these types of textures were set to DXT1, which massively reduce the RAM usage of these textures. Furthermore, Lorandasims reduce the size of the red block texture from 1024x1024 down to only 32x32, virtually negligible in the game in terms of RAM usage.

I've been testing a few modifications and they so far look exactly the same, but I'm wondering if I am missing something? Just in case I overlooked some details.

Though this might seem tedious, but you only have to do it once and then save your CCs down and back them up. If you are struggling with error 12, you might want to consider trying it. Though I can imagine this might be difficult more people with a lot of CCs, as I only have a few. Also, I'm not entirely sure if compressing the texture is good or bad. It saves space on your storage, but that is a non issue these days. Uncompressing them makes them load faster, but I don't know when they're loaded. They are either loaded during game load up or they're loaded when you switch to CAS, I believe. In game textures are loaded from your compositor caches, so those are already decompressed.

Sanity is overrated.

Nitromon is a type of Pokemon encountered in the Pokemon Nitrome Version series.

There. Mystery solved.
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Test Subject
#2 Old 4th Oct 2020 at 10:01 PM
When I make retextures I often use dxt5. I also use a lot of cc with high polygon counts and huge textures. All my graphical settings are maxed and i have reshade and I play alot in sunset valley or legacy island 3. I have never got error 12 and i have never pay attention to ram. how do you monitor it? msi afterburner shows my in game resource usage but it includes the system because it often shows that im using 6 to 8 gb of ram
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#3 Old 5th Oct 2020 at 12:08 AM Last edited by nitromon : 5th Oct 2020 at 2:02 AM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by heye46
i have never pay attention to ram. how do you monitor it? msi afterburner shows my in game resource usage but it includes the system because it often shows that im using 6 to 8 gb of ram


Oh you can see it in the task manager. If you are just talking about the actual texture, it is in S3PE under "memsize." 0x001555f0 is the standard 1024x1024 DXT5, which is approx 1.33MB. Error 12 differs from player to player depends on style. A huge part of RAM usage goes into 2 areas - one is your family tree history and the other is how loaded is your lots with furniture, etc...

People who play single families or a few, usually for story, etc... will not run into error 12. However, global players, like myself, where I went through 8-10 generations of the whole world, error 12 is almost a guaranteed thing. Any world you play will eventually become overbloated b/c the family tree will keep growing. Also the more you develop a world, the more RAM it will use.

In these issues, every little bit of RAM you can save preserves your game to extend them longer into more generations. When you have an overbloated CC, such as hair or clothes, "each" sim which has it will add to the RAM on screen since each texture is saved individually in the cache. This is why efficiency matters in such cases because it will bog down your system.

The "red" block one is the most interesting b/c I find a lot of creators use 1024x1024 DXT5, which 1.33MB. After conversion to 32x32 DXT1, it is only 1.4KB, that is a thousand times smaller.

However, even normal players, story players, can run into error 12 if they have a lot of CCs which are not efficient. There is absolutely no reason for any clothing to use 2048x2048 texture as visually you cannot tell the difference anyways but the amount of RAM a texture of this size uses is exponentially larger, not just 2x larger than 1024x1024.

----

Edit:
So looking through various creations, this is what I found.

Any sort of masks or specular should only be DX1. The RAM usage between DX5 and 1 are massive.

Any "blank" masks/speculars can be shrunken down to 8x8 DX1, virtually 0 b/c they're blank for a reason.

Blank "maps" can be shrunken down as well for the same reason I believe, but the smallest I've found is 32x32. However, all them are DXT5, so might want to leave this one as DXT5.

Sanity is overrated.

Nitromon is a type of Pokemon encountered in the Pokemon Nitrome Version series.

There. Mystery solved.
Alchemist
#4 Old 5th Oct 2020 at 1:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitromon
So looking through various creations, this is what I found.

Any sort of masks or specular should only be DX1. The RAM usage between DX5 and 1 are massive.

Any "blank" masks/speculars can be shrunken down to 8x8 DX1, virtually 0 b/c they're blank for a reason.

Blank "maps" can be shrunken down as well for the same reason I believe, but the smallest I've found is 32x32. However, all them are DXT5, so might want to leave this one as DXT5.

On the masks, it depends on how many channels the recolorable object has. If it has 3, then save as DXT1; however, for 4 channels you need a DXT type that supports alpha, and DXT5 has been the best I've encountered (compresses the least, and has the fewest artifacts). If you're making an object with a lot of small recolorable details, however, I'd keep the mask at at least 1024x1024 because it's easy for colors to bleed into each other (especially for clothing that's painted on).

Of all the textures, I really wouldn't sacrifice the size of the diffuses and multipliers, because that's where most artifacts are visible. Old hairstyles have 512x512 multipliers and the textures are very stretched on the mesh.

In hairstyles, I've found that not using normal maps at all (or replacing them with a 32x32 "blank" normal map - saved with alpha because it's required) actually makes hairstyles look better, especially EA ones. A lot of creators don't use them and they make EA hairstyles look even more dry.

As for speculars, I've started reducing hair speculars to 512x512 as well. There is no point in having them at 1024x1024.

Simblr | TS3 CAS Conversion Catalog - for basegame, EP, SP, and Store clothing!
CC reuploads: gelina | Hal's Archive | Kewai-Dou | mitarasi | Modish Kitten | pocci | Yesod Sims
Test Subject
#5 Old 5th Oct 2020 at 3:10 PM
Nice information. Yes, I only play one family for ganerations. I can tell a difference in some cases when the texture is 1024 instead of 2048. Skin for example. Sometime i have 4k skins but depends what I do. I don't remember the exactly when to use which format because I'm not in the middle of retexturing but when retexturing hair it has to be either dxt5 or dtx3 or the texture will look grainy in the game
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#6 Old 5th Oct 2020 at 6:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetdevil
On the masks, it depends on how many channels the recolorable object has. If it has 3, then save as DXT1; however, for 4 channels you need a DXT type that supports alpha, and DXT5 has been the best I've encountered (compresses the least, and has the fewest artifacts). If you're making an object with a lot of small recolorable details, however, I'd keep the mask at at least 1024x1024 because it's easy for colors to bleed into each other (especially for clothing that's painted on).
...


I wish I knew all this sooner because these are the infos I was looking for.

I knew there has to be more to this than I realized. But I think b/c I don't usually play close ups, I don't really notice the details you are talking about. I also don't use HD mod and stuff, so I'm not really that keen on details unless it start to look fuzzy. I practically change all my custom hair to 512x512.

But I think I should be a little more careful and make a backup of all the CCs I modified. Some things I may not notice now, but I might later. So far I'm just going with what I've already seen what other authors have done in their CCs, so at the very least nothing will look screwy or fuzzy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by heye46
Nice information. Yes, I only play one family for ganerations. I can tell a difference in some cases when the texture is 1024 instead of 2048. Skin for example. Sometime i have 4k skins but depends what I do.


I'm kind of curious what resolution do you play it on. I play on 1920x1080, in which case I assume my setting won't even display 2048 b/c it'll compress it down to 1024.

Quote:
Originally Posted by heye46
but when retexturing hair it has to be either dxt5 or dtx3 or the texture will look grainy in the game


Thanks for this. I was only looking for fuzziness, but now I will also pay attention to any grainy textures. I'm still in testing phase so far.

Sanity is overrated.

Nitromon is a type of Pokemon encountered in the Pokemon Nitrome Version series.

There. Mystery solved.
Alchemist
#7 Old 5th Oct 2020 at 7:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitromon
I knew there has to be more to this than I realized. But I think b/c I don't usually play close ups, I don't really notice the details you are talking about. I also don't use HD mod and stuff, so I'm not really that keen on details unless it start to look fuzzy. I practically change all my custom hair to 512x512.

But I think I should be a little more careful and make a backup of all the CCs I modified. Some things I may not notice now, but I might later. So far I'm just going with what I've already seen what other authors have done in their CCs, so at the very least nothing will look screwy or fuzzy.

I don't use an HD mod either, but I do take a lot of preview pictures for CC, so I want everything looking nice while also keeping the aesthetic of the game (hyperrealistic stuff looks out of place IMO).
If you want to see how significant the difference is, clone a hairstyle and use 512 x 512 textures on the clone, then switch between the 2 in game and see which you prefer.
Otherwise, you could lower your Sim Detail setting to 'High' if you haven't already; IIRC it will make the game use LOD1 instead of LOD0 (which it also uses in CAS) for hairs. The problem with that is that some creators don't make proper LODs for hair, probably because they assume everyone will be playing on 'Very High'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitromon
I play on 1920x1080, in which case I assume my setting won't even display 2048 b/c it'll compress it down to 1024.

It's a bit different. Think of it like using 3 different wallpapers: one is 1280 x 720, the second is 1920 x 1080, the third is 3840 x 2160. If you try to use the first, it'll stretch and look pixelated. The second will look normal, because it's the same size as your resolution. The third will look more crisp/clear, since it's a higher resolution resized down to fit your screen. Same goes for skins. Most of the old ones are 1024 x 1024, the newer ones are 2048 x 2048 or 4096 x 4096. I myself use Kurasoberina's Primer skin in HD+ (2K Faces & Bodies) and there is a noticeable difference between it and skins with a 1k / 1024 texture. As far as regular gameplay goes, though, I don't see a point in using 4k skins; those only make a difference if you get in close and take pictures.

Simblr | TS3 CAS Conversion Catalog - for basegame, EP, SP, and Store clothing!
CC reuploads: gelina | Hal's Archive | Kewai-Dou | mitarasi | Modish Kitten | pocci | Yesod Sims
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#8 Old 5th Oct 2020 at 7:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetdevil
Otherwise, you could lower your Sim Detail setting to 'High' if you haven't already;.....some creators don't make proper LODs for hair, because they assume everyone will be playing on 'Very High'.


That's kind of the thing that bothers me a lot b/c seems there is no "standard" to these CCs. And I hope I'm not stomping on anyone, but just generally what I notice is that people make CCs base on their own style of playing and not realizing there are others. A person who plays on HD mod and making CCs for close ups and screenshots may not feel any performance hit, but another player who plays globally with 300 residents with rapid growth and transitions, will end up with lags and error 12.

I'm quite happy with EA standard, I wish people would always include a EA standard in their creations so at the very least users know the CCs will not use more resources than any standard EA clothes/hair/object.

It reminds me of LOTR: Battle for Middle Earth. Someone modified an Elven mod and thought it was cool to use a modified hero unit as a normal unit. A hero unit was created with higher polygon count and high-res texture b/c of movie sequences where there are close ups. Running on an i7, I felt no difference, but all of the sudden people running the game fine on i3s or slower i5s were getting massive lags. Later I started using Nvidia's HBAO and it shaded every single unit in the game. On normal units it was fine, but an army of this modify unit with high poly count lag the game to a crawl.

This is also why when I created the music replacement mods, I just used EA standard bitrate and setting b/c I'm not sure how a higher setting and larger file size will affect people on computers lower than mine.

Sanity is overrated.

Nitromon is a type of Pokemon encountered in the Pokemon Nitrome Version series.

There. Mystery solved.
Test Subject
#9 Old 5th Oct 2020 at 8:08 PM
Like Sweetdevil said you will notice the textute quality in close ups. If you dont get close, the 4k skin is useless. I changed bunch of stuff in my graphicsrules file to show stuff in better detail father away but it comes with slowness. i don't leave 4k textures on for long in the graphicrules file because texture loading the textures will take ages. maybe in future i will have computer fast enough to allow 4k always on

If somebody makes something for themselves and is kind enough to share it, I'm grateful enough. why would I expect another person to accommodate for my game? The files I put in my game is my responsibility. If somebody elses file doesn't suit me it my job to make it suit me, not the other person. don't download anything you don't understand. there are so many different ways to play so it would be stupid to expect every creator to offer their work in every format, nodoby would not share anything. Usually the polycount and the texture sizes are mentioned. I often see warnings like in if a hair is very high poly.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#10 Old 5th Oct 2020 at 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by heye46
If somebody makes something for themselves and is kind enough to share it, I'm grateful enough. why would I expect another person to accommodate for my game? The files I put in my game is my responsibility.


As a modder myself, I disagree with that. Yes, modders mod for themselves, but there's the responsibility of information. If you are sharing something, you need to let people know what they're downloading. If you are making 4k texture CCs, you should state it visibly so others who like your work but may not want CCs of that quality will know not to download and accidentally put it in their game causing massive problems. And there is irresponsible modding which the creation may actually damage other people's games without knowledge.

I'm not familiar with MTS's requirement on CCs, but I see many creators list their polygon counts and texture resolutions, etc... and I think that is much appreciated. However, I don't see that on other sites, especially some private ones on their own blogs. Not every downloader is S3PE capable or do they bother to check their downloads, you can seriously damage other people's games without proper information. That is just careless.

I don't think it is a modder's job to cater to everyone's taste of course, but you should at very well know how your CCs will affect other people's games in terms of performance and corruption. One of my pet peeves is downloading lots where creators overly used landscaping with tons of trees and bushes overlapping each other. In my opinion, that is irresponsible and could cause some people's systems to crash instantly upon loading. In such case, it really isn't a "creator building for themselves" as more it is just carelessness.

There are people who will always complain about other people's creations and as you've pointed out, a lack of appreciation for other people's work. But on the flip side, an attitude of "I'll do what I want and people should be grateful they even get to download my stuff," is also the same lack of appreciation and entitled attitude. As a creator myself, I never hold such an attitude as I am "grateful" I am allowed to share my work and grateful when people like my work and use my work. When you decide to share your work publicly, you have to own up to that responsibility.

Sanity is overrated.

Nitromon is a type of Pokemon encountered in the Pokemon Nitrome Version series.

There. Mystery solved.
Test Subject
#11 Old 5th Oct 2020 at 11:03 PM
How will a 4k texture damage a game? Or a lot with too many trees?
Mad Poster
#12 Old 6th Oct 2020 at 3:07 AM
If you create for yourself, you have no obligation to anyone else.

If you share it, you at the minimum have some obligation to inform others about what they’re going to download. It’s about trust, IMO.

Also TS3 doesn’t natively have FPS limits, surprisingly enough (meaning that you could end up with something like 2000 FPS)- I wonder if this ties into the horror stories of people watching their computers burn out trying to run the game?
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#13 Old 6th Oct 2020 at 4:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by heye46
How will a 4k texture damage a game? Or a lot with too many trees?


Thanks for asking, it is good to explain the details of this. TS3 is a 32-bit app with limited resources, especially RAM usage. Overbloating the game could cause crashes, memory leak, and all sorts of issues. Error 12 is a very common issue that has a rare chance of successful save even after several "tricks" available on the net. In those case what I later realize is that even if the save was successful, it creates corruptions which can be as simple as a texture corruption or even family tree disruption, at worst the save is dead and will not load.



A few 4k textures is not going to damage a game, but a lot of it, most likely will. Same thing with too many trees. We're not talking about a few trees, the worst I've seen was using "move objects on" and planted trees/bushes on top of each other multitude times to create a more lush environment. In a small home lot I downloaded, which was only 20x20, there were so many trees and bushes that there was a 30 sec delay loading from live mode into build/buy mode on my i7. That was how much was put on it. In a lesser system, this could crash the game. In fact, even in my system, it crashed it before b/c I had error 12 issues and I played it for 1 sim day before entering that lot.

I mean, creators aren't doing it on purpose, they are simply careless. The lot I mentioned above was obviously not intentionally created to crash people's games. The lot was a tropical lot, the creator wanted to create a lush looking vegetation and landscape. However, after editing the lot and deleting majority of the plants, I could still get relatively the same look at a much lean setting. The lot was created on a probably clean world, new game, it was tested relatively in the same environment and not anticipated in saves that may have run a few generation or on systems of lesser capacity.

This is also one of the reasons I don't upload some of the larger lots I've created such as this one, where I did this to get the lighting fix. It may not seem like a big deal, but this is a huge lot and I wondered if all these extra lights would cause issues in people's games. I no longer do these kinds of fixes, generally just a few to make it look "good enough" shall suffice.

Screenshots

Sanity is overrated.

Nitromon is a type of Pokemon encountered in the Pokemon Nitrome Version series.

There. Mystery solved.
Test Subject
#14 Old 6th Oct 2020 at 11:34 AM
If the creator does not even play the game like in the live mode but creates houses and sims for pictures or doesnt even take picture but leaves the game after the sim is done in cas, why would they ever care anything about this? The are alot of people who are like this and why should I expect them to create downloads that suit me. If I don't know what the download is I don't click the link. It is really simple. Not everything needs to include my needs and I can just exit the page.
I do not go in your download page and demand you release high quality version of your creation because I hate the ea standard. So why should those who hate the ea standard had to create stuff for those who want or need the ea standard?

Seems like it is the game fault if it cannot handle this. I would never play sims 3 without nraas mods because how broken and buggy it is. Maybe you should demand ea to fix a game that they charge money than some private person who do creations free and is nice enough to share it. If I upload a file to the internets, I have no obligation to anything. I have all the responsibility if a download something. This is internet 101 just like how you never share your password.
Alchemist
#15 Old 6th Oct 2020 at 2:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitromon
A person who plays on HD mod and making CCs for close ups and screenshots may not feel any performance hit, but another player who plays globally with 300 residents with rapid growth and transitions, will end up with lags and error 12.

I'd say that you (in general, not specifically you) need to spend time around the CC community to know what certain people make, and how to spot high poly CC when the creator doesn't announce it. For example, neon lights are often in the +15k poly range, and I avoid those even though they look pretty. But sometimes you can't tell just from looking; awhile ago someone offered a deco pizza for download and when I looked at it in S3PE, it was around 20k polys. In any case, I'd say most people don't play very large cities/saves, but maybe a few generations in an EA-like town with at most 50-60 total residents (service sims not included).

Quote:
Originally Posted by heye46
If somebody makes something for themselves and is kind enough to share it, I'm grateful enough. why would I expect another person to accommodate for my game? [...] don't download anything you don't understand.

They don't have to, of course, but having a heads up "this item is high poly" would be nice. I don't remember any creators who make/convert clutter in the past few years, doing that. And I almost always have to delete what I download, because I value gameplay above aesthetic. Of course, there are players who only create CC or only play to publish stories, and don't keep those objects in game for too long. The problem - the way I see it - is when most people don't know how to check polycounts, or even how polycounts work, and then wonder why that realistic flower they downloaded makes their game lag because they made an entire field of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitromon
I'm not familiar with MTS's requirement on CCs, but I see many creators list their polygon counts and texture resolutions, etc...

At least for clothing and objects, MTS requires you list the polycount for every LOD. As far as I know, texture resolutions aren't mandatory to list, but people usually do to highlight if something looks more HQ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jje1000
Also TS3 doesn’t natively have FPS limits, surprisingly enough (meaning that you could end up with something like 2000 FPS)- I wonder if this ties into the horror stories of people watching their computers burn out trying to run the game?

Most likely. I had to use a FPS limiter years ago, and now limit the game to 60fps through the NVIDIA control panel. Otherwise you can easily rack up 200fps with the game paused and nothing even moving on the screen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitromon
Error 12 is a very common issue that has a rare chance of successful save even after several "tricks" available on the net. In those case what I later realize is that even if the save was successful, it creates corruptions which can be as simple as a texture corruption or even family tree disruption, at worst the save is dead and will not load.

I suspect that the recommended trick of saving from Map View is to force the game to use lower quality textures and renderings of the lots. I've been tinkering with the grass textures in Sunset Valley for awhile and have noticed that the game has the map view of Sunset Valley already saved to cache, you can see how it looks here. I ran into this when I noticed that replacing the default grass texture for SV didn't replace it in Map View, and digging through the game files returned this. I haven't looked at other worlds quite as in-depth, but I don't remember the Store worlds having anything like this. Will maybe look into the ones delivered via EPs, like Shang Simla or Appaloosa Plains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by heye46
Seems like it is the game fault if it cannot handle this. I would never play sims 3 without nraas mods because how broken and buggy it is. Maybe you should demand ea to fix a game that they charge money than some private person who do creations free and is nice enough to share it. If I upload a file to the internets, I have no obligation to anything. I have all the responsibility if a download something. This is internet 101 just like how you never share your password.

It's hardly a huge demand to request that people list if the items they put up for download have a much higher polycount than EA objects, no? You don't have any obligation, but it's nice to mention it. It's not a question of EA "fixing" the game (which they already stopped support for years ago!), it's a matter of being attentive to the people in the community with little effort. How to play TS3 without lag has been discussed for years now, so clearly many players are concerned with it.
You could create a nice-looking 100k poly dress, but when I can barely turn the sim in CAS without lag, I'm going to take that dress out and never download from you again.

Simblr | TS3 CAS Conversion Catalog - for basegame, EP, SP, and Store clothing!
CC reuploads: gelina | Hal's Archive | Kewai-Dou | mitarasi | Modish Kitten | pocci | Yesod Sims
Test Subject
#16 Old 6th Oct 2020 at 3:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetdevil
How to play TS3 without lag has been discussed for years now, so clearly many players are concerned with it.
You could create a nice-looking 100k poly dress, but when I can barely turn the sim in CAS without lag, I'm going to take that dress out and never download from you again.

Yes the game is so broken it is not the cc that is the problem, it is the game. You can have zero cc and you will have issues with the game. only way to fix is to install nraas mods

That's what you should do, delete the dress and don't download. But do not complain. If you care about the polygons why did you download something that did not list the polygons in the first place?
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#17 Old 6th Oct 2020 at 8:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetdevil
I'd say that you (in general, not specifically you) need to spend time around the CC community to know what certain people make, and how to spot high poly CC when the creator doesn't announce it.


Yeah, but that was my point, majority of people who play TS3 and download CCs are not really tech saavy. A lot of them are kids, they don't know anything about what goes on technically with the game or the CCs. I mean, in a broader view, it is the same reason why fast food is required to show the calories count for their meals now. Not everyone is health conscious or made the efforts to study nutrition to know all this stuff, so this was the bare min compromise. Now, if the government start restricting the sale of certain items such as the Pizza Hut triple decker b/c its calories are too high, that's overstepping.

I think the relationship between a modder and a downloader is a symbiotic one. What good is Mozart without an audience? So there are some responsibilities on our behalf in consideration of how our work may affect the performance of other people's games.

Quote:
I suspect that the recommended trick of saving from Map View is to force the game to use lower quality textures and renderings of the lots.


When you're hitting the error 12 limit, data stored between 3.2-3.7GB are unreliable. So most tricks help us shuffle the RAM and bring it down to 3.0-3.2GB in order to save. So it really depends on what gets shuffled into that 3.2-3.7GB zone. If it is game data that goes into your save, you might run into corruption. If it is just game data for the game engine, then you are safe. Also, if you are capped at your max RAM, it means Win OS will start putting parts of TS3 in the virtual RAM. This part is labeled "modified RAM" in your performance monitor. Data in the modified RAM are easily corruptible even after you save them down. Only in extreme cases now I would try to use these tricks, such as if I've made a lot of changes and had to save. Otherwise I just let it go now and cut my losses. However, the one solution that is permanently working is simply reducing the high res lot from 8 to 1. This cuts RAM usage massively and never use the modified RAM zone, but you settle for low res shells unless your sim is on that lot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by heye46
If the creator does not even play the game like in the live mode but creates houses and sims for pictures or doesnt even take picture but leaves the game after the sim is done in cas, why would they ever care anything about this? there are a lot of people who are like this and why should I expect them to create downloads that suit me.


As I've explained, there is a "responsibility" if you are sharing things publicly. Sweetdevil refers to it as a "courtesy," but I tend to take it a little more serious.

It is not your job to cater to people's demands, but at the same time if you're going to share something, you should be aware of the impact of your creation on other people's system. A very fine example is the carelessness of one creator which unleashed the Arrezzo cabinet virus into the Sims 3 CCs world. She didn't do it intentionally of course, but it is an example when something that was overlooked and wrecked havoc on everyone's game.

And even if you may be more tech saavy and more consciously aware of a lot of internet issues, but not everyone is as I've stated earlier, a lot of people are young and not very informed on the technical aspects of CCs effect on their game.

Quote:
I do not go in your download page and demand you release high quality version of your creation because I hate the ea standard. So why should those who hate the ea standard had to create stuff for those who want or need the ea standard?


I apologize if you're still not getting it. This is not an argument over "quality" of the CCs in terms of what resolution etc... This is an argument over the potential "damage" a CC could cause. You evaluate the 2 (hi res and EA standard) as simply one looks better than others. That is not the case. EA standard was designed with the EA engine in mind, hence why when CCs are made in EA standard, each piece of clothes you create should take up the same amount of resource as it would if it came with EA. Hi-res CCs is like "overclocking" your CPU, it is pushing the engine beyond the design limit.

And again, nowhere in this whole thread did anyone, including myself, said anything about "demanding" people to make EA standard CCs. What is mentioned here is either a "courtesy" or "responsibility" to "inform" people of what you are making, which supercedes EA standard. If you are a 4k CC maker, you should label your page and yourself as a 4k high-res CC maker, so people know what they're getting. This is nothing new, I'm not saying anything that many creators are not already doing. For example, HQ mod, the one I saw and tried came with a very visible disclaimer that it is not to be use for normal play because of the performance impact to the game. I thought that was extremely professional of them to do that, even though people will feel the performance impact the moment the tried it anyways.

Quote:
Seems like it is the game fault if it cannot handle this. I would never play sims 3 without nraas mods because how broken and buggy it is. Maybe you should demand ea to fix a game that they charge money than some private person who do creations free and is nice enough to share it.


It is a game from 2009 that has been discontinued by EA. So... you're not going to get anything out of them. Yes, we all wish they come out with a 64-bit version, but it is wishful thinking at best.

Quote:
If I upload a file to the internets, I have no obligation to anything


You said you use NRAAS mods. Do you even care or appreciate the effort those modders put into their work? So that there are no bugs or memory leaks or anything that might be potentially harmful? The door swings both ways. You share a mod or CC with the public, you are responsible for that. Many creators out there are very protective of their work, they won't even allow other sites to host their files. Again, the door swings both ways. If a creator going to take such a strong ownership over their work, then they need to step up and own it. They own the responsibility of that work.

Now, nobody is stopping you from posting "download at your own risk" and nobody is going to stop you from not giving a damn. But that's on you. For me, there is a reason why I only upload my work to MTS, b/c their demand for quality of upload is much higher than other sites, including TSR. Every lot I've uploaded here, I had to modify to their specified standard and write out the details required in the front page. At first I complained too, seems like a hassle to track down every CC I used in the lot. I thought at first it was just a "credit" issue, but later I realized because not everyone want all those CCs and some people want to know what they're downloading.

When a CC used in a lot upload is verified by the creator, downloaders can have the security of knowing it has been tested. This is why it takes me over an hour or more to modify lots I already created a while ago to meet the standards demanded by MTS. At the same time, I have much more confident downloading CCs and other creations from MTS than other sites that tell me barely any information about what I downloaded.

Sanity is overrated.

Nitromon is a type of Pokemon encountered in the Pokemon Nitrome Version series.

There. Mystery solved.
Alchemist
#18 Old 7th Oct 2020 at 11:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by heye46
Yes the game is so broken it is not the cc that is the problem, it is the game. You can have zero cc and you will have issues with the game. only way to fix is to install nraas mods

That's what you should do, delete the dress and don't download. But do not complain. If you care about the polygons why did you download something that did not list the polygons in the first place?

You're missing the point. A lot (I'd hazard to say "most") of TS3 players barely know how to get CC in their game, let alone how to check polycounts — which, if the creator doesn't list them, you need to download additional programs to see. Then you need to read up on meshes and what polycounts mean. It's time-consuming and not everyone is willing to put in the time to learn (which is reasonable).

Whenever I retexture hairs not made by EA, I add a note mentioning the polycount and if it's medium or high, and all of it takes me a few seconds — which I can spare because I want to spare others the wasted time downloading something they can't/won't use if it's too high poly. Especially with TS4 CC clothing and hair conversions others make nowadays, which are very high poly. Fortunately, I've seen a trend of creators listing polycounts, which in my mind makes them more trustworthy.

I can download something if I like it, of course. If I only downloaded things that have listed polycounts, I'd have like...10 pieces of CC in my game right now.
And there is plenty of game-breaking CC out there. To name only 3 cases I've come across recently:
1) patterns made with the Create-a-Pattern tool that, when converted to .package format, override other patterns in the game due to being assigned the same resource ID. You need to fix this manually.
2) clothing enabled for ages it shouldn't be (leading to the infamous spiderbabies glitch).
3) lots with arches as entryways before the front door, which cause lag when sims visit because the game sees the arch as a "door" leading to a "room", so when the front door is in that "room" sims can't get to it because they need to be invited in. But they can't be invited in unless they access the front door. So the game gets stuck processing this every time a sim wants to enter the house, and if you have a mod that handles this issue you'll see a lot of sims being reset.

I don't understand your opposition to this, tbh. It takes a few seconds to list the polycount and what it means, and I really don't see how a player is "entitled" if they want the creator to list that information.

Simblr | TS3 CAS Conversion Catalog - for basegame, EP, SP, and Store clothing!
CC reuploads: gelina | Hal's Archive | Kewai-Dou | mitarasi | Modish Kitten | pocci | Yesod Sims
Test Subject
#19 Old 7th Oct 2020 at 2:15 PM Last edited by heye46 : 7th Oct 2020 at 2:36 PM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetdevil
You're missing the point. A lot (I'd hazard to say "most") of TS3 players barely know how to get CC in their game, let alone how to check polycounts — which, if the creator doesn't list them, you need to download additional programs to see. Then you need to read up on meshes and what polycounts mean. It's time-consuming and not everyone is willing to put in the time to learn (which is reasonable).

Then why the need even list polycounts etc if majority doesn't even know what it means? Why should somebody who plays the sims just for making pretty dolls have to learn all this just because they wanted to share their work with others who play the game same way? It is just a game, it is a hobby, it is not any deeper than that. when I buy the sims or when I downloaded S3PE there is not a single document that explains what a good creator is. when I upload a file to drop box there is no box for me to sign that I understand what a good creator is. When I link to stuff here, there is no definition what a good creator is. There is only you people on this thread trying to decide for everyone what a good creator is. Also, you have not linked to any good creators. This website claims to have high standards but I very rarely download from mts anymore.

It is courtesy enough that there is free stuff available for you. it is on you to make sure that your game does not suffer and you do this with having backups of your files. If you play sims on computer that can barely run the game and then get cc, you cannot be upset that performance gets worse. you also cannot get upset at something that was free and you had no need to download it in the first place. that is you just being entitled and spoiled. i can understand you being upset at a update that ea forced you to download and that messed up your game but to complain on 3rd party cc creators that provide their work for free. sorry, you are a karen, noway around it.

There is always a risk, either by if the creator is "careless" or "uneducated" or is by whatever is your standard a good creator. mistakes happen all the time for everybody. if your game suffer because you put something in it - your fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitromon
You said you use NRAAS mods. Do you even care or appreciate the effort those modders put into their work? So that there are no bugs or memory leaks or anything that might be potentially harmful? The door swings both ways. You share a mod or CC with the public, you are responsible for that.

What are you even talking about? How dare you imply I don't appreciate nraas mods? Where can you even get an assumption like that? What is wrong with you?

No, I really like to know. Where in my text could you possibly get that from? I'm the opposite. I'm saying they own me absolutely nothing, they have done already enough by making the files available in the first place. Just because they have chosen to provide support, which they absolutely don't have to do, is great. You are entitled to think that they have to do all of that just because the pressed the button to upload a file. Sims 3 players are so spoiled. You don't know how difficult getting sims 2 to work is and trying to figure out mod loading orders and which mod version works etc. But i'm still grateful sims 2 creators that they made and provided these fixes even when the documentation is lacking or some mods like pescados make more changes secretly. I still would not complain.
Test Subject
DELETED POST
7th Oct 2020 at 2:35 PM
This message has been deleted by heye46.
Lab Assistant
#20 Old 7th Oct 2020 at 6:55 PM
I wish others would stop bashing people that can't afford the latest i9 or i7 build to run their games. People do what they can and shouldn't penalized for not being able to do so. The Sims series up to now, does not need high end computers to run and people shouldn't be expected to do so. Even if I could afford a higher end build I wouldn't run the game on HD. I don't believe a game like the Sims 3 or 4 needs to be run on those graphics. Though things have deteriorated on my 6 year old pc, when it was younger the Sims looked good on a non hd, high settings. Creators should be taking this all into to consideration when creating cc. Especially if they have it in mind to share. These days I take the position that everything is high poly until proven otherwise. Yes it is up to you to educate yourself about these thing but people also think that if a person can create content they know how to do so properly. Meanwhile I've still see bad naming in 2020, so I don't assume anything.
Alchemist
#21 Old 7th Oct 2020 at 7:15 PM
@heye46

It's considerate to warn people when your CC exceeds what the game engine is typically made to render. This has already been said above. It's easier to Google "the sims 3 high polycount" than to wonder why your game's laggy, go through several guides that may not be relevant, maybe reinstall the game etc. Using many high poly objects/clothing/hair WILL make your game lag, no matter how beefy your computer is.

MTS is just a site like any other IMO. Aside from the modding discussions, the content is pretty similar to what you can find in other parts of the community.

I guess I don't agree with your view that I should automatically be thankful just because something is free. I don't expect people to shower me with praise just because I put up things for download and I think that no creator should be above constructive criticism. I've seen creators fix things because people reported certain problems with their CC — hell, even I had to do it! If they'd said nothing, that content would be broken forever.

I think I'd be a Karen if I went to those creators and shouted and made demands in their inboxes about it, not having a casual talk here But maybe I don't know what a Karen is.

And I still don't understand why you're so upset and calling people "entitled and spoiled"...because they'd like to know the polycount before downloading? Weird hill to die on.
nitromon even gave an example of the HD mod, where the creator was considerate to warn people that the mod shouldn't be used for regular gameplay. Where's the harm in doing that?
But hey, we can complain about anything! I can complain about people who don't optimize CC properly, you can complain about our complaining :p

Edit to add: maybe my tone came off as angry, lol. Trust me, I'm not. At most it's a mild annoyance.

Simblr | TS3 CAS Conversion Catalog - for basegame, EP, SP, and Store clothing!
CC reuploads: gelina | Hal's Archive | Kewai-Dou | mitarasi | Modish Kitten | pocci | Yesod Sims
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#22 Old 7th Oct 2020 at 7:58 PM Last edited by nitromon : 7th Oct 2020 at 8:28 PM.
Hmm well the discussion seemed to be going in a bad direction.

Well, I created this thread to learn more information as well as share information I have about making the game run leaner and more efficient for those of us who suffer from bloated games. Error 12 is a real problem for many of us who play generationally or globally.

@heye46 you are free to your opinion of course, but I just hope you can see your attitude about it is the same as the people you complain about. But that's really none of my concern as I don't know you and have no interest in changing your moral standpoint. I think it is great you're making 4k HD textures and there is a community for that, there are people who love those textures. We're just stating the fact that "not everyone" wants HD textures for performance issues and it would be the responsible thing to do for a creator to label their creation so others would not mistakenly download it. Labeling your work at the same time will attract downloaders who are specifically looking for 4k CCs.

But the curious thing is, according to your view, you should be agreeing with this thread. You stated that people shouldn't go around demanding creators to make CCs to fit their need. That being said, that is what this thread is about. Teaching others how to modify CCs themselves instead of bothering creators. Instead of requesting a EA standard resolution on CCs, people can open up the CCs with S3PE and use photoshop to simply reduce the texture quality down. Now again, not everyone has experience in that area, hence why this thread was created informing what elements can be reduced to what level without the textures going blurry. I imagine players playing on lower than 1920x1080 can even go lower to 512x512 textures on clothings if they like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetdevil
2) clothing enabled for ages it shouldn't be (leading to the infamous spiderbabies glitch)


Another pet peeve of mine, when creators want their work in every clothing category. It's just clogging up all the clothing categories and making it load so slowly. For people who haven't realized how to fix this, use S3PE and edit the CASP file with the (grid) editor. There you can change and remove the CC from categories you don't want.

Sanity is overrated.

Nitromon is a type of Pokemon encountered in the Pokemon Nitrome Version series.

There. Mystery solved.
Dancing Flamingo
staff: administrator
#23 Old 7th Oct 2020 at 8:39 PM
Unless your post is about RAM usage and cc textures sizes, do NOT post in this thread.  Your post will be deleted and you will very likely get a warning on your account. 

Otherwise, I find this topic quite interesting!  I've always been annoyed by creators who use larger than necessary textures, even in TS2.  If the texture is invisible, why use anything over 1px?
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#24 Old 7th Oct 2020 at 9:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HugeLunatic
If the texture is invisible, why use anything over 1px?


Thanks for the info, I did run into invisible textures and the smallest I've seen so far is 8x8. However, is it really necessary to use DXT5 for these? or can they use DXT1 with 1 bit alpha?

Also, can the red block textures be reduced to 1x1? I don't even know what those are, they're just a texture with 1 color, red.

I've modified a custom skin I downloaded (the joint doll one for android plumbots). While the main texture needs to be 1024x1024 or it will become blurry, but there is a scalp piece that was just single color, so I reduced it to 128x128. But now I'm wondering, if I can just reduce it to 1x1. I would think custom skins would be used much more abundantly in the game for most players, so they would have more impact on the performance over clothings and accessories.

Sanity is overrated.

Nitromon is a type of Pokemon encountered in the Pokemon Nitrome Version series.

There. Mystery solved.
Alchemist
#25 Old 7th Oct 2020 at 10:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitromon
Also, can the red block textures be reduced to 1x1? I don't even know what those are, they're just a texture with 1 color, red.

I've modified a custom skin I downloaded (the joint doll one for android plumbots). While the main texture needs to be 1024x1024 or it will become blurry, but there is a scalp piece that was just single color, so I reduced it to 128x128. But now I'm wondering, if I can just reduce it to 1x1. I would think custom skins would be used much more abundantly in the game for most players, so they would have more impact on the performance over clothings and accessories.

I remember TSRW throwing a fit when I tried to use textures with dimensions that weren't a multiple of 4 and perhaps a size already used in game textures i.e. 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024. I don't remember coming across textures smaller than 32x32, but maybe there are some and I'm just not remembering it right now.

I've seen a plain white block being used for uhhh...clothing ambient? And skin ambient, on a few clothing items from EA.
The red block could also be used it as a scalp and face mask for hairs, since those don't have alpha channels.

I can run some tests tomorrow/later, because I'm curious about all these, and if normal maps can be decreased in dimensions without losing detail.

Simblr | TS3 CAS Conversion Catalog - for basegame, EP, SP, and Store clothing!
CC reuploads: gelina | Hal's Archive | Kewai-Dou | mitarasi | Modish Kitten | pocci | Yesod Sims
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