When you import a bed into MS there is this snarl of blue all around the mesh that makes it very difficult to see the actual mesh itself. I know that at some point Wes told me how to get rid of them but since they weren't intrusive for simpler objects that information didn't sink in and now I can't remember how and I can't find the thread where he told me. I apologize for being so scatterbrained. Does anyone know how to do this without actually removing the joints from the object?

Another question, am I going to have to worry about all the bones (right term?) in order to make a bed with appropriate animations? Or can I just copy my new bed over the old bed and assign joints just like with any other piece of furniture?

OM

In the file menu, select preferences, then in the misc. tab set "joint size" to 0.01. That will make the joints a good size for Sims 3 meshing... they will be small circles instead of a "snarl of blue". In the joints panel you can hide those by unchecking the "show skeleton" box.

I think you will find that assigning the joints like the original bed had them is critical to having it perform properly. You will find joints with no assignments, those are there to specify a position for some action on the bed surface, but there will be joints that are assigned to the bed surface, for example, to allow animations that deform the surface when someone lays on the bed.

If you are just changing the frame, you can save a lot of work by leaving the mattress and it's assignments alone.

Hey there darlin'. I was hoping you would see this thread.

My plan is to change only the frame. I want the bed to perform properly and I am thinking that anything beyond that is...well beyond me at this point. So can I just use the unassigned joints trick to get the joints to assign correctly? I don't want a bed that the Sims can't...well you know....lol (best behavior, propriety and all).

When you say, "You will find joints with no assignments, those are there to specify a position for some action on the bed surface," this makes me worry that the animations I want to stay there will be obliterated if I use the unassigned joint trick. Will they?

When you say, "You will find joints with no assignments," I wonder how I know this...how do I know which joint is assigned to what?

I know you have probably directed me to some tutorial on this in the past and I really am sorry that I didn't note it down. But at that point I wasn't thinking about something like a bed so I didn't. If there is something already written on this topic do you mind too much directing me to it? I promise candy for help although I would give it to you anyway.

OM

In the joints panel is a checkbox marked "Draw vertices with bone colors" that is most informative. Of the greatest value to you is to select a joint (double-click on the name in the joints panel) and then "Sel Assigned" which will show what vertices are assigned to that joint.

It is quite possible that the entire frame is assigned to one joint, likely the transformBone. If that is true, then at the end just select that joint, click on the "Sel Unassigned" (which selects all the vertices that are unassigned) and click on "Assign" to set them to it.

That should leave all of the joint assignments for the mattress in place. You cannot change their locations, and if you delete any joints themselves the exporter plugin will complain about it and refuse to cooperate.

Sigh...tricky and difficult. I will try though. I know I promised candy but I'd rather give you sugar instead. Thank you Wes. Off to try it.

OM

Wait...I am seeing dots not circles. Let me post a pic. Is this right?



And my joints panel doesn't have a box like that:



Please do not tell me this means I need to update my MS....please, please do not say that.

OM

You can make the joints slightly larger by setting them to something like 0.012 or 0.015. All in what you like, it will work either way.

While what you have will work, it is old, pre 1.8, I think. Older versions don't work as well for body meshes, Sims 2 or Sims 3, but for objects anything past 1.7.8 or so is good enough.

But you only have the "Sel Assigned" and "Sel Unassigned" buttons to work with, and I don't know if double-click works on the joint names... a single-click may be all that is required.

So you are only a couple of years out-of-date on a program that has free updates.

Sigh...ok...will update if you say it needs to be done.

Got 1.85. Feeling silly about resistance now.

OM

I apologize for the double post and for asking a question that, strictly speaking, is more about how MS works than how Sims 3 meshing should be done.

Again, if there is any previously existing post, tutorial, or even just a thread with hints I would appreciate a link rather than taking up space asking questions that have already been answered.

My question has to do with this instruction: "In the joints panel is a checkbox marked "Draw vertices with bone colors" that is most informative. Of the greatest value to you is to select a joint (double-click on the name in the joints panel) and then "Sel Assigned" which will show what vertices are assigned to that joint."

I checked off the box "Draw vertices with bone colors" and saw the colored pixels appear showing the vertices. But when I select a joint by double clicking it in the joints list and then click "Sel Assigned" these colored dots don't change.

Here is a pic of what my MS looks like with the EA canopy-type bed and the area with the tabs. Are my settings correct?



Thanks for any help or links.

OM

The selection colors do not work with "Draw vertices with bone colors" turned on. It appears the bone colors overrides the selection color.

I like to do that with "smooth shaded" instead of wireframe selected. You can see what areas are assigned to bones... I suspect not all those bones have vertices assigned to them, they are just important for their location, they mark places to sit or lay at.

You need only worry about assignments for the joints that have assignments. The rest just need to be left alone, moving them is not possible with any easily available programs. Not that there is much need for moving them on a bed, people wanted to move the wheels on cars.

Your response would appear to indicate that there is no available tutorial for all this...so I really appreciate you taking the time to educate me.

While I can understand the purpose of moving joints on a bed to add animations (that would be the way to do it right?) that isn't something I am in any position to attempt. I'm still just trying to get an idea of how to keep them where they are.

Yes...the car wheel thread...lol...I read that many times trying to learn something from it. It's still over my head.

So...click off the "Draw vertices with bone colors" box and select smooth shaded instead of wireframe. Will try. Thanks so much.

OM

I see you are here so I am adding this instead of editing. Again, sorry for a double post.

When I use smooth shaded I can see the arrows but they confuse me. In wireframe I can see red dots and blue dots. These are the assignments right? But what do they mean?

Is there some easy way of telling whether this is so?..."It is quite possible that the entire frame is assigned to one joint, likely the transformBone."

I am not seeing names of joints in the list...only hash numbers. I click through the list and see some pixels turn red while others stay blue. Some of the joints I click have no color pixels...these are the ones which need to stay uncolored right?

OM

Hashes are not easily reversible, unless you have a list of all the names. We do, in the _KEY file, but that is not included in or linked to the importer or decompiler plugin.

The ones that turn red when you click Sel Assigned are those that are assigned to that joint. Joints that you select will turn red for the joint itself, but if Sel Assigned does not make anything turn red, that joint can safely be ignored... it is there for a purpose, but not to have any vertices assigned to it.

What you are trying to do here is to determine what joint or joints actually have vertices from your bed frame assigned to them. Then, when you have remade the frame, you just assign it to the same joint(s) and leave everything else stay as it is. If the frame is actually only assigned to one joint, then using "Sel Unassigned" on the new frame mesh and then assigning to that joint would be all that is required.

I guess what I'm trying to get at here darlin' is how can I know which of these hash numbers are for the frame and which for parts of the bed which I want to leave alone? Are you saying that if I click on a hash and it turns pixels red in the mattress area that I should leave that one alone?

When I look at this bed with one of the MS quadrants in smooth and another in wireframe and then click the different hash marks the little arrows in the quadrant where I have the smooth don't change at all. But the little colored pixels do change. Is this a settings issue?

The arrows are large so I see why you prefer that view...but they don't seem to change when I click different hashes so they aren't giving me much information.

I am probably too blonde to try this...if you think so just say so and I'll desist. I think you probably have a decent evaluation by now. I really don't want to take up space with this if you think it is beyond me right now. I have the patience to keep trying but I don't want to cause you aggravation if you don't.

Is there some easier thing to learn this on? Is there somewhere I can go for a tutorial or information of any kind? It makes me crazy asking one stupid question after the next when I don't know if it is annoying you or not.

OM

You're making it too hard, it is really an easy task:

1. Go through the list, bone-by-bone, click "Sel Assigned" and note which bone(s) show assignments on the frame.

2. Make your new frame, and make the assignments for it look like the ones you noted in step 1.

I would bet there are few bones that have anything to do with the frame, don't worry about the assignments on the rest of them, they will take care of themselves if you leave them be.

I'll stick with it then. As long as I know I'm not driving you crazy with questions and that you reckon I can do it.

OM

Wes, sorry to butt in like this.
Does this work if the frame is imported as a .obj from Wings as well?
Or does it only work the way you described above, if the frame is meshed in Milkshape?

If you are making your new frame in Wings (or 3DS or whatever), but are assembling in MilkShape, then yes, that should work, the difference is that you would delete the original frame (but not the mattress), import your new frame as a .obj, and then pick up making the assignments from there.

I don't know if the bed is one group or more, object meshing is sensitive to maintaining the group count and arrangement. So if the mattress and frame are in one group, then you would need to regroup after your .obj import. However, because they are different materials, they are probably in separate groups. Someone else that has worked on that bed will have to tell us how many groups there are.

Group00 - frame and top edge of blanket
Group01 - 1 pillow and portion of blanket
Group02 - other pillow and portion of blanket
Group03 - shadow

Wes can I use that little MS comment section to keep track of my hash assignments or do I need to write the information down elsewhere? If I use the comment section do I have to empty it out before exporting the bed?

And sorry for butting in myself, but I don't think you're butting in Dee.

OM

edited to add:

Wes, I started going through the list of hashes. So far the first four show red pixels on the mattress and on the edge of the blanket that is part of Group00. The pic below shows what this edge looks like...I think it's the part the Sims grab to move the blanket around. Is this going to make the task more complicated?



Sorry...another question. When I clicked on one of the hash assignments (is this the right term?) in the joints list before I had clicked the SelAssigned button one of the blue balls below the bed turned red. Then, when I clicked the SelAssigned button this ball turned blue again and pixels on that blanket edge in Group00 turned red. Not sure what the significance of that is. Here's a picture of the one that turned red in case that matters.



Ok...that was a stupid question. (I'll leave it though for other people who are reading through this trying to learn.) They are all doing this and I just hadn't noticed it until now. This is indicating which joint those pixels are assigned to right?

I haven't made a double bed but I have done a single. I imported the s3 mesh, found the right joint number that was assigned to the frame, then imported my obj mesh, moved and sized to match the original, deleted the orginal frame, assigned my new frame mesh to the joint that was assigned to the orginal frame. I believe there was a single joint assigned to the bed frame. I don't remember the top edge of the blanket being attached to the frame joint, plus it makes more sense for it to be part of the bedding.

This bed has 110 joints in the column. After going through them all I have found 13 that are assigned to both that blanket edge and the mattress. The picture I posted above shows the bed with the two mattress groups hidden. As you can see there is a little portion of the blanket still remaining...doesn't this mean that that portion is part of Group00...the frame group?

There is a single joint that is assigned to the whole rest of Group00. There are many that aren't assigned to anything and a handful that don't even have a ball assigned to them.

I am having another problem. I imported the bed and got all the groups. I looked at the joints and noted their assignments. Then I went to save the bed and it told me I needed to assign joints. So even though I didn't change the bedding in any way it still erased the bedding's joint assignments. How can I stop this from happening?

Another thing as an aside. When I first went through the list I used that comments section to note down what the joint was assigned to. I then saved that bed as a new instance of the MLOD by accepting that the joints were not assigned. When I opened it up the comments I had made were gone. Luckily I hadn't closed my other instance of MS so I still had all the comments and I wrote them down instead. Is there some way of saving the object with those comments intact?

OM

Here is a picture showing Group00 selected. I've circled the blanket edge which you can see is highlighted in red while the pillows and the rest of the mattress groups stays white. I think this means that the blanket edge is part of the same group that the rest of the frame is. Isn't this correct?

That edge may show you that parts of this are just not as critical as you are working it up to be. If you delete Group00, then those will go, too. I think ctrl-click will unselect them.

If you lost all the assignments, you must have transferred the mesh into .obj format or something, maybe to your UV mapper?. .obj has no space to carry bone information in it. I usually save all my work in .ms3d files, so I can add textures and such to make the work easier, and I only export when I am ready to game test. Just leave the mattress alone, deleting the frame group and either making a new one or importing just the frame from elsewhere.

Ok...I'll try making my bed mesh and delete that blanket edge when I delete Group00. I probably am just getting overly worried about it.

I didn't transfer to obj format and didn't even open the MS TCE. I don't use UV Mapper or anything other than MS to map with so it isn't that. But I've had this issue all the way along. The minute I bring one of those meshes into MS even if all I do is look at it, when I go to save it it asks for bone assignments.

OM

The shadow mesh doesn't have them, and the plugin just checks for any unassigned vertices.

That explains that then. I should have guessed that was the issue myself. Thanks again.

OM