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Field Researcher
#26 Old 9th Nov 2009 at 9:39 PM
Like Inge said, you can first make a clone with s3oc, then open it with the workshop, edit it in there and export it as a package. (In your description, it seems you cloned directly with the workshop ?). For me, I deleted the stbl just after that. I didn't try it in the game first. So I don't know for sure if that influenced it's not appearing or not.
In the Arena
retired moderator
#27 Old 9th Nov 2009 at 9:44 PM
I, too cloned directly with TSRW and then export to .package and it did not appear in game, no changes were done. I think the way it is setup, needs to be exported as Sims3Pack and installed via Launcher as it has an ICON resource and some others that I usually didn't bother to include in my clone packages to reduce size.
One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#28 Old 9th Nov 2009 at 9:46 PM
Yes, as I said earlier, it works much better if you clone initially with S3OC *unless* you are intending to do the entire project in Workshop.

"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
Forum Resident
#29 Old 9th Nov 2009 at 9:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hazuitokage
(In your description, it seems you cloned directly with the workshop ?)
No. I opened a S3OC clone in TSRW.

So it seems the right way of collaborating them is first Cloner with renumbering, S3PE, then TSRW and then don't touch it anymore, lol
Lab Assistant
#30 Old 9th Nov 2009 at 9:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by leesester
Its NOT as powerful as S3OC and S3PE [...] but its ok for simple stuff.

Well that's only true for a very few things which Workshop can't clone properly yet such as roofs and terrain paints but please be aware that we have to maintain the whole CAS stuff as well.

Our intention was never to create a package editor such as S3PE. The tool is designed to present the complex structures of given packages easy to the users to modify it to their needs. For the more advanced users among us we have the Project Content window where you currently can delete resources or view the Hex-code, even export/import MLODs from there. Of course this window needs some more adjustments to allow for a better workflow.

Even S3PE is very powerful for a modder, it's not for the average custom content creator which doesn't know which chunk/value to modify etc. (and I'm not only talking of the MLOD/MODL, but also of VPXY and all the other resources which need adjustment when a new mesh is imported for correct display ingame).

It actually starts at adding/deleting variations. You're one click away from a variation in Workshop. Don't know how that's done in S3PE though. The tool (the Pattern Editor) also allows to choose whatever pattern you want (Color/HSV) and adjust the tiling. You can even edit those complex HSV patterns which are a majority of the game's patterns.

It continues with meshes where Workshop is even able to edit the materials in its very own Material Editor and view/edit the linked texture complates. Whenever a new Multiplier Map is imported, all materials are updated to the correct texture sizes so blurry textures in the game are avoided from the start on.

Furthermore (in a coming version) we have now correct sunshadows. Thankfully one of our programmers found all the entries which need to be adjusted upon import to have a correct sunshadow. Since we're some sort of lazy folks, we got the creation of shadow meshes automated. It's as easy as going to the shadow mesh in question, hit a button, choose the meshes and click done. The 3D window will be able to preview the sunshadow.

Workshop is also able to calculate the footprints from selected meshes by itself. In the future it will also be able to edit all the slots. Currently they can be displayed to see where they all are.

I'm sure S3PE can do that too with lots of coding. But I'm not a coder, I'm a CC creator.

Minisite

TSR Workshop
A Custom Content Tool for The Sims 3
One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#31 Old 9th Nov 2009 at 9:52 PM
Well it depends to what extent you go on touching it. You certainly wouldn't want to open it in S3OC for renumbering again, but I can't imagine what harm it would do to simply import a new image into an existing resource via S3PE teko I just read your post. Johan said he was going to try and add automatic wallmask creation for windows. Is there any progress on that?

"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
Lab Assistant
#32 Old 9th Nov 2009 at 10:22 PM
I've tried using TSRW to change the default patterns on objects, and it works well and conveniently for that. I cloned and edited the objects on S3OC and S3PE as usual, then imported into TSRW to do the pattern change. However I too ran into the problem that doing almost anything to the resulting package in S3PE seems to break the package.

I could live with that, but what's bothering me is how big the filesize is for the packages TSRW exports. I like to use the two step cloning process and delete the unneeded dds files to keep my files small. For one object I am working on, the finished package is about 250k when I do it in S3PE and s30c, but when I put it through TSRW it is around 3775k.

Not really a big deal for many people, I know. Maybe it's user error on my part. I know that this isn't the place to get TSRW tips. Still, I'm confused about it given what Teko said:
Workshop clones only the resources really needed for an item to work. The main difference is that it won't include any textures from the start on, they're all linked. As soon you import an own texture, this resource gets added to the project content.
Forum Resident
#33 Old 9th Nov 2009 at 10:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BabaYaga
I could live with that, but what's bothering me is how big the filesize is for the packages TSRW exports. I like to use the two step cloning process and delete the unneeded dds files to keep my files small. For one object I am working on, the finished package is about 250k when I do it in S3PE and s30c, but when I put it through TSRW it is around 3775k.

Exactly. So I'm wondering if the gain (easy custom patterns) really outweighs the loss (huge files). I hope one of the creators proficient with the tool know the answer (and I hope it's not "save to sims3pack format")
Lab Assistant
#34 Old 9th Nov 2009 at 10:39 PM Last edited by teko : 9th Nov 2009 at 10:55 PM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hazuitokage
Teko, are you still using those ? I think you were at first, unless I'm mistaken. You seem to be very involved in the Workshop but have you totally abandoned modding with them ? I hope it's ok to ask ^^.

I'm involved as far as I've wrote pretty much the whole documentation for TSRW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemoncandy
The files TSRW creates are over 1mb.

When you export it as a Package, then yes that's true because Workshop doesn't compress it. Export it as a Sims3Pack to have the file compressed and a correctly installing CC item. We'll move the function to export to package to a more accurate place. It's not the format which should be used for a finished CC item anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemoncandy
So it seems the right way of collaborating them is first Cloner with renumbering, S3PE, then TSRW and then don't touch it anymore, lol

I don't understand why you want to collaborate 3 programs if you can do it all in 1 program (except of a few things)? Workshop even cares for renumbering for you automatically. S3PE for exporting MLOD/MODL? Workshop offers WSO for Milkshape which is the most accurate exchange format between Sims 3 and Milkshape.

@Inge
When you clone with S3OC you get all the unneccessary texture resources which blow the file up instead of having them linked. So unless it's not an object not possible to clone in TSRW, I wouldn't recommend to go that way.
As far as the automated wallmasks go, they're still on the list I guess but might have some lower priority as wallmasks are rather easy to create with a graphics program.


I really hope this discussion is going to clear up some confusion existing here.

Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BabaYaga
I could live with that, but what's bothering me is how big the filesize is for the packages TSRW exports. I like to use the two step cloning process and delete the unneeded dds files to keep my files small. For one object I am working on, the finished package is about 250k when I do it in S3PE and s30c, but when I put it through TSRW it is around 3775k.

Well actually that doesn't surprise me. S3OC got all and every linked texture for you into the package, for most of it very unneeded pattern resources which are already available in the game. And I guess you saved the project in Workshop to a package. As said earlier, we do not support this format as a final CC format. We rather see it as an exchange format between the different tools. Sims3Pack is the format to use for The Sims 3, otherwise it doesn't install correctly and won't be included with any house/sim you make for upload.
That's also the answer for you, lemoncandy.

Edit2:
We're pretty aware of the slow installation process and the resulting chaos in the Launcher. I took the chance and personally mentioned this issue to EA two weeks ago. So there might be hope they'll improve the Launcher.
Till then jfade has developped a third party Launcher which makes installing and managing Sims3Packs very easy. The tool can be found here. It allows finally to install Sims3Packs without the Launcher correctly into the game.

Minisite

TSR Workshop
A Custom Content Tool for The Sims 3
Warrior Gryphon
site owner
#35 Old 9th Nov 2009 at 10:59 PM
Comparing TSRW with S3PE or S3OC is comparing Apples to Oranges, to be honest. TSRW is a big monolithic tool that promises to do many different things, and it certainly has a lot of features and a lot of functionality, and obviously a lot of work goes into maintaining it. Most of this work is done by paid programmers though, rather than people who do it open source for free and in their spare time, so obviously the quality is going to be different.

It's a matter of personal opinion whether you use TSRW or you use S3PE, CTU, or the various small editors I have released that let you edit the materials, VPXY, etc. I think that, in general, the more "advanced" person wants exact control over everything, including morphs - and unfortunately some of that is simply not possible at the moment. Morphs have been in CTU for months, for example. But again, you can't compare the entirety of TSRW to just one tool, and certainly comparing TSRW to S3PE is, actually, completely non-sensicle.

I think that it's good that there is the potential to use either one big tool or lots of smaller ones - it opens up the community to different ways of working. I most certainly do not want the entire community doing things ONLY in 1 program becuase that stifles creativity somewhat - if program X doesn't do something then you have to wait till it does, or spend time messing around with a hex editor figuring it out for yourself. The advantage of multiple smaller tools is that they do ONE thing and do it quickly.

Oh and Snowman, heres a protip for you: Who do you think talked to Johan and helped him work out an alternative way of doing the keyboard handling for the 3d view in TSRW, enabling them to get rid of the nasty hooking mechanism they where using before that triggered lots of malware alerts?

lemoncandy: The Pattern Packager lets you do simple custom patterns (not HSV ones though). Sure, TSRW has more features, but for just taking a simple pattern out of Photoshop or the GIMP and putting it in game, sometimes a big huge monolithic tool isn't always the only way to go....

Story books are full of fairy tales, of Kings and Queens, and the bluest skies.
Test Subject
#36 Old 9th Nov 2009 at 11:02 PM
As a BOTH user...

I use S3OC for cloning anything not supported by Workshop yet, I use it for generating new clones based on a first object I've made (for example: a window set) because the Workshop does not assign unique IDs to imported packages (S3OC does), and I use it to compare compression sizes of end results (to ensure everything worked out okay. I also use S3OC and S3PE jointly to examine some of the resources in a package file because I'm not yet familiar with the package content structure of Workshop. Finally, I use S3PE to explore those big data files of resources when I think I can use something already in the game like an empty texture.

I use Workshop for the mesh development. I used S3PE in very early days but there was a little UV shift (which may now have gone) but it was otherwise great. I now use Workshop because the 3D view is invaluable for viewing ground shadow mapping, wallmask accuracy and, soon, automatically generated sun-shadow positioning so soon there will be no need to make MLODs 2 and 3 manually. It allows the selection and modification of any pattern to apply to the object (and tile it to fit), and I believe also the ability to create a custom pattern and import to the project (not tried that). It will also show footprint size and will readjust the footprint for a given object automatically (or the footprint can be forced to a set number of tiles or told to fit the mesh size). There is also a visual representation of slots though I'm not sure they're working yet. Lastly, it outputs Sims3Packs which is important to me because I like to upload what I've made in lots.

After finishing, I then export a package version which I will then open in S3OC to generate a new instance of the object - and so on!

I use S3OC and Workshop in tandem and depend on both. I tend not to use S3PE so much now, but only because I haven't needed to (I'd use it in a heartbeat if I needed it). I have nothing negative to say about either - not even the words 'huge' and 'monolithic'. I don't think it is. I haven't noticed anything burdensome about any of the community tools I've used - just the great things they can achieve.

So thanks to everyone who has made all these fantastic tools!
Forum Resident
#37 Old 9th Nov 2009 at 11:06 PM
teko:
Okay, thank you for the answer.

I thought the general feel about this was that it's better not to include the CC in uploaded lots as some creators prefer to not allow that and require linking to them instead. I may be wrong.

Also, I like quick and easy installing, and with package format I can just place them in the right folder and then remove from there any time I want in 1 second. A sims3pack I need to place in a folder and then install with a separate program that takes ages to load, and when I want to get rid of it I need to open that program again and search for the item in a long-long list, ugh
But that's just me.
Sorry for going offtopic.

I appreciate you taking the time and coming here to answer our questions, teko.

EDIT. Okay, ignore me. Do I type slow or what
Forum Resident
#38 Old 9th Nov 2009 at 11:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delphy
lemoncandy: The Pattern Packager lets you do simple custom patterns (not HSV ones though). Sure, TSRW has more features, but for just taking a simple pattern out of Photoshop or the GIMP and putting it in game, sometimes a big huge monolithic tool isn't always the only way to go....

Thank you, but my aim wasn't to create a new pattern but to replace a clone's default patterns (By the way I already made some patterns with your Packager and it was fun!)
One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#39 Old 9th Nov 2009 at 11:28 PM
Teko, the user of S3OC is advised to use their judgement to dump any resources they didn't need to edit (or those that were required to chain to them). The tool simply gathers them up as an automated convenience. Granted this is more demanding on the user, but our remit was to do absolutely no "dumbing down".

"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
Field Researcher
#40 Old 9th Nov 2009 at 11:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemoncandy
I thought the general feel about this was that it's better not to include the CC in uploaded lots as some creators prefer to not allow that and require linking to them instead. I may be wrong.


Yes, me too, I was left with the same impression. No uploading of houses with third party content in them. And ditto for the sims3pack format not being the easiest to use either (in terms of installing and deleting easily). It does have the good point of letting the player know which is custom content, but other than that… Unless the program Teko pointed out can do that stuff easily ?
Anyway, the 'uploading with houses' point has got me scratching my head.
Lab Assistant
#41 Old 9th Nov 2009 at 11:41 PM
@Inge
I'm afraid the common user doesn't know which textures to dumb and which not. In fact I saw a lot of duplicated texture resources in good ol' Sims 2 packages. They just didn't know what they were doing and what texture resource they really replace.
I like how TSRW presents the linked textures to the user and offers to work with them outside the program. After the changes are done, it gets imported and added to the project content.

Apparently, when you delete texture resources in S3PE, doesn't it destroy the reskeys?

Minisite

TSR Workshop
A Custom Content Tool for The Sims 3
One horse disagreer of the Apocalypse
#42 Old 9th Nov 2009 at 11:44 PM
You have to do it before renumbering. Then S3OC knows to preserve the links to the original resources.

"You can do refraction by raymarching through the depth buffer" (c. Reddeyfish 2017)
Scholar
#43 Old 10th Nov 2009 at 12:00 AM
I do like the Workshop, because it seems very organized and useful. Unfortunately to me it's no use because of the cars I make. And since my cars are quite high poly, I guess TSR WS doesn't support it? I tried making a car mesh, but it said something about the new mesh being too big, or something. I do like the program itself though, it's very clean and simple to use.
Test Subject
#44 Old 10th Nov 2009 at 12:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hazuitokage
Anyway, the 'uploading with houses' point has got me scratching my head.



Why? I upload lots all the time with both my own and other people's content (used with permission and credit). I haven't yet encountered this 'most people won't let you use their content' thing at all. That's something I haven't really encountered since, um, 2005...
Lab Assistant
#45 Old 10th Nov 2009 at 12:16 AM
@Inge
That makes sense then.

@Fresh-Prince
We don't have a faces/vertices restriction. Could it be that you mapped outside of the allowed square of the UV map? Sims 3 can't handle that case.

@dylanw
Resource.cfg makes the packages part of the game. So when the game needs to pack a sim or a house, it checks for the CC content installed (as well Store content) and packs it. Packages aren't recognized as CC, since they're not in My Documents\Electronic Arts\The Sims 3\DCCache.dbc where all correctly installed CC is stored.

Minisite

TSR Workshop
A Custom Content Tool for The Sims 3
Field Researcher
#46 Old 10th Nov 2009 at 12:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dylanw
I haven't yet encountered this 'most people won't let you use their content' thing at all. That's something I haven't really encountered since, um, 2005...


I never said that most people won't let you use their content (where on earth did you get that from what I wrote ?)

I think my confusion comes from the fact that store content comes in sims3pack format (as well as TSR content), and pay files are not allowed in uploads (at least here) : hence the dubious plus side of having them included automatically in lots. That's all.
Test Subject
#47 Old 10th Nov 2009 at 1:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hazuitokage
I never said that most people won't let you use their content (where on earth did you get that from what I wrote ?)


You did. You and lemoncandy to be precise...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazuitokage

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemoncandy
I thought the general feel about this was that it's better not to include the CC in uploaded lots as some creators prefer to not allow that and require linking to them instead. I may be wrong.


Yes, me too, I was left with the same impression. No uploading of houses with third party content in them.


Then you were 'scratching your head' at uploading in lots. If you know that creators DO let you use content in lots, then you (presumably) also know that sites are usually quite happy about allowing lots with custom content provided permission has been sought - yet you are the one still scratching your head about it all.

Teko: thanks - I know, that's why I like to use Sims3Packs
Scholar
#48 Old 10th Nov 2009 at 1:19 AM
teko, Im sorry, what does that exactly mean? Do you mean the uv map is bigger than the original, or TS3 only allows a certain size? Im not really the brightest person,lol.

This is the error I get. Im probably doing something completely wrong that I dont realize.
Dancing Flamingo
staff: administrator
#49 Old 10th Nov 2009 at 1:29 AM
I've not used the TSRW, but that might be the same error given by Wes's object tool. It means that your uvmap is outside the original uvmaps bounds. You need to shrink your uvmap. I've no idea what the margin of error is on either of those, where one might think it is out of bounds and the other doesn't.

I've noticed mention of footprints and that TSRW can adjust those. I've not seen in the Wiki how this is being done. I would like to adjust the footprint on objects, but I don't want to use TSRW. I want to continue with S3OC and s3pe. Does TSR plan to share how this is modified?
Scholar
#50 Old 10th Nov 2009 at 1:30 AM
Hmm, This is the first I've hear d that using sims 3 packs includes the contents in a lot with the upload (sorry for being so slow on the uptake of this). I'd be all for that if all the content in my lot was of my own making, but I'd be scared out of my head that something might slip in there that I forget to mention, at least with packages if you forget to mention it, it just doesn't show up.

As for workshop, I use it to view patterns tiled when I make them. I did ask Delphy when his pattern packager would be able to show a tiled view. Well for now I use TSRW to view them then I open them in Delphy's to actually make them into .package files.

I just downloaded the new workshop and have been meaning to install it to have a look at creating objects in it but just haven't gotten round to it.

What I have seen on this thread that disturbs me a little is that people are making use of their right to free speach and giving opinions on certain things, then someone else says they can't do that but gives his own opinion (albeit under a false name). I'm all for people being able to speak freely and they have a right to their own opinion, which I may or may not share, but one thing I do hate is someone giving their opinion under a fake profile, that is the only wrong thing with this thread.

Sorry, just had to say my bit on this.

Delphy, when you gonna do that tiley thing in the pattern packager? lmao
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