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Lab Assistant
#51 Old 12th Feb 2014 at 11:21 PM
The following is just my personal opinions and preferences.

I don't care for real-world religions being in the game, but if someone would create Christianity/Judaism/Islam/Hinduism/etc. mod(s) that the player could choose to download or not, I wouldn't mind it.

But religion in The Sims Medieval is canon, so I'd download a mod for the Watcher faith—with you, the player, being the Watcher—and its Peteran and Jacoban sects for The Sims 3 in a heartbeat!
Test Subject
Original Poster
#52 Old 13th Feb 2014 at 1:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by joandsarah77
A small tip, read site rules before you get into trouble. It's against the rules to make requests here, you have to look on the wcif board at creators who take requests and pm someone. You can only get a group together if you yourself a modder who others respect enough to form a group. Secondly you're not allowed to double or in this case quadruple post. Better stop before a moderator comes along with a very large boot.


I was hoping it would inspire a group of modders, this is not meant as a recruitment page, I just saw the old post was closed and I wanted to see more recent feedback on the debate.
Test Subject
Original Poster
#53 Old 13th Feb 2014 at 1:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsyokawe
Explain to me how the game would remain neutral if right off the bat, not every faith is added??

I think it's fine if some private citizen decides to invent a mod so that his sims can follow his faith. Whatever floats your boat.

But were EA/Maxis to decide to add only some religions and not others? I think I'd find a way to sue them. I know I'd certainly make a lot of F*****g noise.


Not every faith is practiced still. There are thousands that have zero members, and not just zero recorded members, but literally zero members exists and it has become more of a museum piece than a respected faith. I think they would easily have to add 500 faiths IN A BETA VERSION OF THE CONCEPT, probably up to 2500 to remain truly neutral. Again, it would take an entire other team to develop just that concept due to the amount of research needed to be done on each faith, as well as adding in all the faiths' temples/churches/stupas/mosques/cathedrals, adding in different prayer animations, etc.
Test Subject
Original Poster
#54 Old 13th Feb 2014 at 1:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_wolf_12
Well, firstly, there is only one god in the Sims: Me. Worship involves pissing me off by getting stuck in places and pedantically remembering how you went to the park that one time and that it is all possible because of me.

Secondly, I consider religion in the game to be the same as disabilities and disease. (Ba-ziiiing! But seriously.) Yeah, it's nice that you'd be able to make a more faithful version of yourself by having sim!you a door knocking, blood transfusion hating Jehova's Witness or deaf in one ear or Jewish-but-I-eat-pork-and-watch-Schindler's List or confined to a wheelchair due to chronic morbid obesity or whatever, but at the end of the day the players are going to be pissed no matter what. "My religion isn't like this!" "I still can't marry three women!" "You don't have my religion's talisman!" "My religion isn't even IN the game!!!"

I can see the end result already. Nobody pleased besides maybe a few of the main religions but they'd be nerfed. Christians will be angry at this, Atheists at that, Agnostics will be all "Yeah, maybe, I don't really know, whatever" at it all. And we'd probably have an entire expansion pack dedicated to getting a moodlet when you pray and the forum drowning in players bitching...more so than usual.

In short, nothnx.


IT WOULD TAKE A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF EFFORT TO INCORPORATE IT TO AN APPROPRIATELY RESPECTFUL STATE!!!!!! I do not know how much I need to repeat this, and really, disease and disabilities should be in, the game is about simulating real life, although cartoony, and all those things are part of real life, just as is religion.
One Minute Ninja'd
#55 Old 13th Feb 2014 at 1:52 AM
What about handling religious sects that believe in things like sacrificing chickens and goats? I mean, yes, we have a chicken as a premium object, but we still don't have goats, and even the chickens in the game can't be served at the dinner table, let alone be offered up on like, an alter. Still, if this is what it takes to finally bring polygamy back into this game, I'm in.
Scholar
#56 Old 13th Feb 2014 at 3:12 AM Last edited by tsyokawe : 13th Feb 2014 at 10:24 PM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirz345
...disease and disabilities should be in, the game is about simulating real life, although cartoony, and all those things are part of real life, just as is religion.



Bear with me, because I'm not sure how to put in writing what I'm trying to explain...

Disease exists. We can measure its effects: this many people suffer; this many people die; this many people recover; etc. Granted, there are conclusions about the effects that we may not agree on, BUT we can all count. The same goes for disabilities...but there we do start to run into disagreements on who is disabled, and who is not.

But RELIGION cannot be measured at all. We cannot say whether a god/deity exists. We take it on faith. Or we don't.

So, you cannot compare the realities or real-life-ness of disease and religious beliefs.

But seriously, that isn't why I don't want it in. I don't want it because I KNOW that Christianity will be validated with such crap. MAYBE Islam and Judaism will get near-equal billing, while maybe 12 other religions will be offered as acceptable alternatives.

But everything else will be treated as exotic, if not occult. I mean, look at Supernatural. There's an interaction choice where a loved one can ask a witch to leave witchhood????

Just including religion in an EP or whatever, Maxis/EA will be validating [a select few] religion[s]. That's enough of problem, right there. But depending on their beliefs, their ignorance, their tolerance...oy, I can't even describe the crap without getting pissed off.

13feb2014 1424 hrs MDT: edited to clarify my remark about validation...(I put it in brackets).
Mad Poster
#57 Old 13th Feb 2014 at 3:33 AM Last edited by simmer22 : 13th Feb 2014 at 3:48 AM.
EAxis kind of validated religion already back in the good old 05 & 06 Holiday packs (and occultism/whateveryou'dliketocallit even before that). They crammed in several religious objects, like those candle thingies I can't remember the name of (minora or something?) among other things. Christmas is sort of OK because you can do the whole Christian thing or you can do the commercial version with Santa and the trees and gifts and everything (that even the not-so-religious and even non-believers still celebrate because it doesn't really have to be done in the religious way). A fair amount of the sim players celebrate Christmas (or alternatives of it), so they knew they'd get a lot of buyers for the packs. They probably added the other religious symbols as a fair try on balance, and let it be a simple stuffpack so that people who didn't want it didn't need it for anything.

As I mentioned before, they also crammed in two "fake" religions in Medieval, "fake" mostly because the names were mostly made up but the religious performance containing worship is something you would find in most somewhat standardized religions back in the medieval times, and because the priests have some headgear that looks suspiciously like the pope, if I remember correctly.

And let's not forget about the "afterlife" and the ghosts, becuse superstition is pretty much the whole basis for all religion (one could argue the occultness of it, but again, that's superstition as well).

So... validating religion? It's been there hiding in the shadows with a scythe ever since long before the days of Sims 1. The whole clue about the game is to play the god (good or bad, all-knowing, all-fixing or "don't give a cr*p-god") over an entire world. You can even be the "god" in SimCity, and the child game SimTown from the 90s (although they called it being "the mayor", and the earthquakes/fires/whatever for the most part weren't player-generated, except for the difficulty level - I played that game far too much when I was little ).

The makers of our favorite games have snuck in both occultism and religion under certain people's noses, and considering this thread (and several like it) were even made, some people really don't pay enough attention...
Top Secret Researcher
#58 Old 13th Feb 2014 at 4:41 AM Last edited by r_deNoube : 13th Feb 2014 at 5:08 AM. Reason: Faced with two Disagrees, provided link to the proper scriptural authority.
There's a Star Man waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet us, but he thinks he'd blow our minds.

If we can sparkle, he may come tonight.

David Bowie said it , I believe it, and that will do for me, I think.
Scholar
#59 Old 13th Feb 2014 at 4:43 AM
nevermind. we'll agree to disagree.
Inventor
#60 Old 13th Feb 2014 at 10:33 AM
Page 3 before the bickering begins... I'm kinda impressed...

The Grumpy Old Gamer's Blog

~Life is like a box of chocolates, just when you're enjoying it, you choke on it.
Top Secret Researcher
#61 Old 13th Feb 2014 at 2:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsyokawe
But seriously, that isn't why I don't want it in. I don't want it because I KNOW that Christianity will be validated with such crap. MAYBE Islam and Judaism will get near-equal billing, while maybe 12 other religions will be offered as acceptable alternatives.
...
Just including religion in an EP or whatever, Maxis/EA will be validating religion. That's enough of problem, right there. But depending on their beliefs, their ignorance, their tolerance...oy, I can't even describe the crap without getting pissed off.


...I think we're using different meanings of the word validated. To validate something is to make it legitimate. I don't think that putting any religion in a video game will affect how true - or not - the religion is.

But I agree that EA would screw it up.
Top Secret Researcher
#62 Old 13th Feb 2014 at 9:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axe Gaijin
Page 3 before the bickering begins... I'm kinda impressed...
We might ought to change the title to
"Could a discussion about whether religion could work in the Sims work on MTS?"
Scholar
#63 Old 14th Feb 2014 at 1:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirz345
IT WOULD TAKE A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF EFFORT TO INCORPORATE IT TO AN APPROPRIATELY RESPECTFUL STATE!!!!!! I do not know how much I need to repeat this, and really, disease and disabilities should be in, the game is about simulating real life, although cartoony, and all those things are part of real life, just as is religion.

Exactly. A massive, massive amount of effort with little payoff in the end and the reasoning behind the idea is "It's realistic" which hardly justifies its inclusion.

Cleaning is also a major part of life for anyone who doesn't fancy their kids being taken away by Social Services or being featured on one of those hoarders shows, but I don't have any desire to watch my sims spend several hours dusting shelves and vacuuming floors. To me, mopping floors or doing dishes was fine to simulate that aspect in life, just like how I thought the diseases in the Sims 2 were suitable for the game.

The point of the game is for EA to make money, very few people are going to want to buy an expansion pack whose main selling point is that sims can now have cancer or whatever.
Mad Poster
#64 Old 14th Feb 2014 at 5:57 AM
Oh fuck no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simmer22
There's more than enough religion in TS Medieval. If you want religion, that's the game for you (although I admit it can be a bit fun, but only in that particular setting, and I quickly got tired of it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiranda
But religion in The Sims Medieval is canon, so I'd download a mod for the Watcher faith—with you, the player, being the Watcher—and its Peteran and Jacoban sects for The Sims 3 in a heartbeat!


You people are smart. I like you two. If, if EA ever gets so severely brain damaged that they decide religion in TS3 is a good idea, I would hope it'd be the TSM religions, or something as equally made up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikel23
I can't believe you actually compare laundry with religion. Do you believe in laundry? Do you worship it? Do you think there's a debate thread whether laundry should be implemented or not? If religion is as easy as laundry problem, there won't be any talk like this.


Look man you might not believe in the Holy Washing Machine but some of us do. I like to go and pray nightly in front of it.

On the other hand though that might be out of gratitude of not having to either hand wash shit or step around giant water puddles the old one pissed all over the kitchen floor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafe Weisz
Do not mind atheists. We should have the option to turn on religion in the game. EA said that there would be no laundry or religion in the sims, but we got laundry in sisms 3, so religion is totally possible. We just have to yell louder than atheists. Which we will sure not be doing any time soon, proving we are not as aggressive as them.


wat.

wat.

No. This is stupid. You are stupid. I can't really put into words my massive WTF at reading this; even the Psyduck emote I'm so fond of can't.



There. I think that'll do.
#65 Old 14th Feb 2014 at 6:55 AM
If you think about it we already have it. Or rather we have the limitations of a religion without anything to worship. Just look at the inability to have poly relationships (without mods) and the Reputations system which frowns on all that poly would stand for; multiple relationships and children born outside the Traditional vows. Even the 'holidays' are based in Christianity or a Western belief system at best; note the Christmas trees and so on. EA can call it Snowflake Day all they like, but I *see* Christmas written all over it.

Personally I wouldn't want religion, but respect the views of those who do and for those who find religion important in their lives.
Lab Assistant
#66 Old 14th Feb 2014 at 7:07 AM
So, perhaps the #1 thing that I'm willing to give EA credit for is knowing when to not address sensitive subjects--like faith and lack thereof. Because as so many others have said, it would be terrible with a 98% probability. I trust Stephen Colbert to address sensitive subjects in ways that are both humorous and considerate, but I do not have that level of trust for EA. The wisdom to not pursue such topics is perhaps the only scrap of self-awareness that EA corporate has ever shown, and I would be really loathe to see it go.

I did enjoy the religion system in TSM, with the two warring churches (identifiable as Catholic and Protestant IF you know enough of the history, but nothing overt). But it only worked because they were nonsense religions, with "The Maker" (i.e. the player) as God. And it was in a setting that was essentially medieval European, which made it marginally more acceptable to have Christian-like religions and only Christian-like religions. If they were to do anything, I'd want it to be a fake faith--which, if you are Very Serious about your religion, might be uncomfortable. Pretty much everything worthwhile in the Sims is so because it works as an ironic joke--you may play the game straight, but a solid half of the players on this site do not. I mean, this is the same community that brought you the anniversary toilet chair, right? You really do not want to implement anything as a major game feature that you don't want as the butt of pretty much any joke imaginable.

I am religious, and I enjoy poking fun at my church (dear God it's so easy), but there are also lines that I very much wouldn't like to see crossed. Many other religious people have similar boundaries, and the placement of those boundaries varies greatly--from anything goes to offense at the barest hint that they do not possess incontrovertible Truth with a capital T. There are also non-believers who have their own boundaries where it comes to religion, and those also vary a lot, as demonstrated by this thread. (As far as I'm concerned, the proselytizing Atheists and the fundamentalists of all faiths deserve each other, and life would be happier if we exiled all of them to Antarctica together, except for the part where I'd pity the penguins.) It's pretty much impossible to find a good or even defensible place to draw the line on religion in the Sims, UNLESS you make it all about worship of the player or plumbob, and even that way you're bound to have a few people upset on either end.

A fake faith or faiths along the lines of what we had in TSM could be fun, and I'd probably explore it at least somewhat. BUT it would be hard to do well, especially to keep it funny and keep it from quickly getting boring. But even that I wouldn't necessarily trust EA to do well and with sensitivity, and it's definitely not a priority, as it's unclear that you could (1) do it well, (2) make it funny, and (3) add significantly to game play, which are the really important things. Better diseases are waaaaaay higher on my wishlist, but then twallanism did a good job of addressing that, too.

In terms of your own game, plenty of people have made custom churches as community lots, and I'm sure you could download them. There are also custom monk/nun careers available on this site (for which you need twallan's custom career base mod). I don't happen to use any churches or have that career set installed, but I know that they exist and you could certainly add them in your own game. It would also be pretty basic modding to edit one of the custom book mods in order to add in religious books, if that's your cup of tea--there are a lot of custom book addition mods that you could start from. All of these are easy things for a player to do in their own game, as a customization, and would get you some ways toward the semblance of religion. A skilled modder could probably even make a religious scripting mod based on the code from TSM, but if you're hoping for that you should request it on one of the sites where requests are allowed. Scripting mods are a big enough time commitment that you basically have to hope that someone with both the time and skills is interested, because very few people are going to make that kind of investment in anything that they don't personally care about.
Field Researcher
#67 Old 14th Feb 2014 at 12:24 PM
EA did try for a religion for the Sims in the Sims Medieval. It wasn't any sillier than anything else in the game--the game set goals for the clergy of the two faiths and they were set tasks usually related to their religion. The Peterean and Jacobean faiths were about as harmless and non-controversial as you could get as long as you took into account the fact that it was stated at the beginning of the game that you were the deity they worshipped. They just disagreed on how you thought.
Test Subject
Original Poster
#68 Old 15th Feb 2014 at 2:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lewisb40
OK, just how many different religions do you propose should be in a town, world, setting, in the game? In that case I want Sims to have liquor stores that provide real liquored juice so I can have them on opposing corners in the world. Every corner!



Are you for real? Religion and Alcohol are not even remotely similar, the juice is just alcohol, with a different name for ratings reasons, why else do you think you sim will behave as if they are drunk while juiced? I would think at least 30 religions with their buildings and scriptures would have to be implemented over all, ideally, I would like 50 implemented. If it worked semi-similar to the social groups, I.E. you get in by performing religious actions, much like how religions work in real life, you work your way up and become more respected among the faithful. I meant it to add a new layer, not clearly denounce one religion while praising another, dying would be the same, we wouldn't see where the ghost goes outside when not haunting, to make sure no religion is made to be clearly right.
Test Subject
Original Poster
#69 Old 15th Feb 2014 at 2:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeval99
I'm gonna go with

because

and just for fun


This was insanely intolerant and bigotive. I find it hypocritical that the atheists that act like you, who openly attack religions just because you don't agree with them, try to preach tolerance and understanding, while saying religion only brings hate and violence, yet you are non-religious but bring hate to drive your point? You are a intolerant hypocrite.
Test Subject
Original Poster
#70 Old 15th Feb 2014 at 2:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BL00DIEDHELL
Oh fuck no.




You people are smart. I like you two. If, if EA ever gets so severely brain damaged that they decide religion in TS3 is a good idea, I would hope it'd be the TSM religions, or something as equally made up.



Look man you might not believe in the Holy Washing Machine but some of us do. I like to go and pray nightly in front of it.

On the other hand though that might be out of gratitude of not having to either hand wash shit or step around giant water puddles the old one pissed all over the kitchen floor.



wat.

wat.

No. This is stupid. You are stupid. I can't really put into words my massive WTF at reading this; even the Psyduck emote I'm so fond of can't.



There. I think that'll do.



Your response just proves that you can't handle criticism and anyone that doesn't agree with you. The Sims is not designed to be an Atheist paradise, it is supposed to be a goofy simulation of real life, hence the name, the SIMS.
Top Secret Researcher
DELETED POST
15th Feb 2014 at 2:48 AM
This message has been deleted by r_deNoube. Reason: Not gonna get anywhere that hasn't already been gotten.
Mad Poster
#71 Old 15th Feb 2014 at 4:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirz345
Your response just proves that you can't handle criticism and anyone that doesn't agree with you. The Sims is not designed to be an Atheist paradise, it is supposed to be a goofy simulation of real life, hence the name, the SIMS.


.....who was criticizing her besides you? The only thing she said that could have counted as rude or uncalled for was in response to Rafe Weisz, who had apparently contracted a bad case of moronitis. Nobody who argued against having religion in the game has said anything out of line or anything that was meant to be offensive so please calm down both with the attitude and the triple posting :P
#72 Old 15th Feb 2014 at 4:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirz345
This was insanely intolerant and bigotive. I find it hypocritical that the atheists that act like you, who openly attack religions just because you don't agree with them, try to preach tolerance and understanding, while saying religion only brings hate and violence, yet you are non-religious but bring hate to drive your point? You are a intolerant hypocrite.


I am not aware that there is such a word as bigotive .. I think you may mean bigoted.

Furthermore, considering your rage towards anyone with views that differ from yours, I would suggest that you stop flinging the word 'intolerant' around as well.
Scholar
#73 Old 15th Feb 2014 at 4:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirz345
This was insanely intolerant and bigotive. I find it hypocritical that the atheists that act like you, who openly attack religions just because you don't agree with them, try to preach tolerance and understanding, while saying religion only brings hate and violence, yet you are non-religious but bring hate to drive your point? You are a intolerant hypocrite.


Never EVER once...not ever EVER...has an atheist tried to convert me to his point of view. I mean NOT EVER.

For that matter, neither have Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, or Rastafarians. Ya know who HAS tried to convert, every fucking time? Christians.

it. is. inevitable.

I've lost good friends, because they just couldn't help themselves.[ I'm] such a nice person, and they don't want me to lose my chance for life everlasting...or how about[ I'm] already a good Christian, I just don't know it.

If you want religion in Sims, write a mod. If you want violent fanaticism, try Grand Theft Auto.

But for frogs sake, leave the rest of us out of it.

Oy.
Mad Poster
#74 Old 15th Feb 2014 at 4:42 AM Last edited by simmer22 : 15th Feb 2014 at 5:01 AM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirz345
This was insanely intolerant and bigotive. I find it hypocritical that the atheists that act like you, who openly attack religions just because you don't agree with them, try to preach tolerance and understanding, while saying religion only brings hate and violence, yet you are non-religious but bring hate to drive your point? You are a intolerant hypocrite.


The jokes were quite to the point (although perhaps they fit better and would be a bit more appreciated in the off-topic atheist topic?), but I guess one can't have a very rigorous religious belief to find them funny. Ever since religion (note: "religion" as the term for the various religious belief systems as a whole, not for every single individual person practicing it) started to exist, quite a lot of them have been in the "thou shalt believe in my religion" corner, and most of the time the religious leaders don't do a lot of the tolerance and understanding they preach (if they preach it at all, depending on the religion - religious warfare has plagued the history for who knows how long). Some religions do love their hate and violence, and many others practice mild intolerance at best. Religion is one of the main things that can make good people do bad things. You don't see a lot of non-believers doing things "in the name of atheism". If non-believers do Very Bad Things, it's usually because they're bad people with bad ideas, not because they've been brainwashed into it by a holy text. They don't even have the excuse of a holy text to hide behind (we all know the "but the [insert holy text here] says...!" and how it affects people who just wants to live their life, but can't because religion bumps in where it really should have nothing to say).

Aaaaaanyway, that's probably a discussion for someplace else. This thread was about TS3 and whether or not it should have religion in it, I think?

The references to religion or occult beliefs already in the game is more than enough for me. They're a part of the sims, and sort of their version of a belief system for those who want religion, and not too intruding for those who don't want it. The occultness is easy enough to avoid for those who don't want it, and fun for those who like it. And some can be modded, which makes most of us happy.

I still have no clue why people compare religion and laundry, though. Laundry is a neccessary evil (for most people ) in Real Life, and a part of all the household stuffeths your parents mostly takes care of until you move out. We've managed without laundry ingame until halfway into TS3, so it's not something we absolutely need in our games, apart from the touch of realism. The difference is that in real life you can actually make do without religion (in today's society, anyway), but not without laundry (unless you find someone to do it for you).

I'm pretty sure that if (and that's a big 'if' because I don't think they will) EAxis decided to bring in religions again (apart from the references they've already put in), they would do it Medieval-style, with made-up religions instead of the main Real Life religons. Less chance of pissing off anyone that way, plus they could have some fun in making them up. I'd rather let my sims have wishes to worship the "Great Plumbbob" or "the washing machine deity" some such, than having them worship any of the big, Real Life religions (and in the case of unhappy simmers who wants their sims to worship their religion, some modder could probably change the pie menus, and everyone would be happy).
Scholar
#75 Old 15th Feb 2014 at 4:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by simmer22

Laundry is a neccessary evil in Real Life.


I'm a baaaaaaaaaaaaaad girl. I love to fold laundry. It smells sooo good. And when I'm folding laundry, I don't gotta think...about nuttin.
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