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Mad Poster
Original Poster
#1 Old 29th Apr 2017 at 1:42 AM
Default Why does the game have such a problem with colour banding?
As you may be aware, especially if you're a frequent taker of the screenshots, TS3 suffers from colour banding. Bad colour banding, in fact. The colour banding is worst in screenshots with low contrast, where large parts of the image feature no major variations in colour. Likewise, it isn't a noticeable at all in other screenshots. If you've ever looked up at the sky at dawn or dusk, you'll know exactly what I mean, and, I hope, you'll be just as displeased. But it does leave me with some question

Can I attribute it to the limitations of 8-bit colour depth, however unlikely, or does TS3 suffer from seriously low dynamic range?
And, I ask this as someone who is totally unaware of what dynamic range exactly is and how the hell HDR works, what can I do to solve this?

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dodgy builder
#2 Old 30th Apr 2017 at 7:02 PM
Do you have any pictures of this, so we all know what we are suppose to discuss?
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#3 Old 1st May 2017 at 12:50 AM Last edited by GrijzePilion : 3rd May 2017 at 11:15 PM.
If you don't already know what I'm talking about, then I doubt you'll be able to help me with it much. But fair enough:

"Colour banding is a problem of inaccurate colour presentation in computer graphics." - Wikipedia
Like I said, it's worst in images with low dynamic range. And it can't be because of color depth, because I'm not seeing the problem anywhere else.
(Keep in mind that I'm already using dithering, which partially obscures the banding. The problem is also more noticeable in-game.)







And as visualized by our friends at Wikipedia:


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Mad Poster
#4 Old 1st May 2017 at 1:13 AM Last edited by simmer22 : 1st May 2017 at 1:27 AM.
The textures aren't bigger than 1024x1024, maybe 2048x2048, so the closer you get, the more blurred the textures will look. It can depend on the underlying texture, or the overlay used on top.

For clothes, a lot of the textures are going to blur even more because of how they're mapped or because of the sim moving. Some colors have a tendency to look worse than others, particularly black and colors with a small range, and as you say, low contrast.

It probably comes down to either how your computer monitor displays colors, or how the game handles colors, or both. TS3 isn't meant only to be used with the highest-range computers, so a dip in the graphics quality might have been to balance playability on lower-end computers.

Anoter issue is if you only see the problem on JPG pictures. When they are very compressed, some color details will disappear. If you want to avoid that problem, I suggest you find a screenshot program that saves less compressed files that keeps the colors better (PNG/TIFF/BMP format). Some uploading sites will also occasionally turn down the quality on pictures if they're uploaded as JPG. I usually save the postable version of pictures as PNGs. They're a bit bigger than JPGs, but preserve colors a whole lot better.
Lab Assistant
#5 Old 1st May 2017 at 4:46 AM Last edited by ameenah.n.y : 1st May 2017 at 5:05 AM.
Much of the color banding in the game is due to the lossy nature of DXT compression. Compound DXT compression with a low-resolution, and the banding problem gets much worse. Open any of these textures in Photoshop and have a look - if you don't see banding right away, throw on a solar curve.

The CASTable nature of most assets actually adds to this issue as well - the way a solid color overlay interacts with the diffuse can create a lot of artifacts. Speculars (for EA assets) are saved with DXT1, the lowest tier, compression. So, even if banding is not obviously present on the diffuse, a stripe-y specular is often the culprit, as this impacts how light interacts with the texture. It's possible to eliminate or at least minimize banding in newly created textures, but I've yet to discover a way to easily and uniformly remove it from the game as a whole (aside from the dithering you're already applying).

You're definitely on to something, though, there's got to be something seriously OFF with the lighting engine that causes the extreme banding visible during certain times of day. I've personally tested the game on a multitude of well-calibrated monitors, and these issues still persist.
dodgy builder
#6 Old 1st May 2017 at 11:39 PM
I take it this thread is only for professionals. If that's the case this subject belong somewhere else.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#7 Old 2nd May 2017 at 12:43 AM
Yes, and no.

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dodgy builder
#8 Old 2nd May 2017 at 9:40 AM
It's arrogant to assume that because I haven't hard that word before I don't know anything about it. It's even more arrogant to assume that I can't learn anything about it.

On top of that it must be well known to everyone and you that my native language isn't English, but I guess you know that term in every language on this planet.
Scholar
#9 Old 2nd May 2017 at 10:04 AM
It's also a mistake to think that the original poster is the only one who's meant to benefit from a discussion. So "I doubt you'll bed able to help me" is not really an appropriate response.

(I've been involved in discussions about this problem with respect to darker shades of Sims 2 skins before, and we did not call it "color banding")
dodgy builder
#10 Old 2nd May 2017 at 11:10 AM
Quote: Originally posted by lucy kemnitzer
It's also a mistake to think that the original poster is the only one who's meant to benefit from a discussion. So "I doubt you'll bed able to help me" is not really an appropriate response.

(I've been involved in discussions about this problem with respect to darker shades of Sims 2 skins before, and we did not call it "color banding")


Yes, and we have those lines in caw as well. It's part of what we have to work on with the color ramps for our ini files. It's what is often referred to as an environmental mod from Brnttwaffles among other things. If they ever called it anything I have forgotten it, and that's how my brain works. I remember concepts, but the name they are given I usually forget.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#11 Old 2nd May 2017 at 11:17 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Volvenom
Yes, and we have those lines in caw as well. It's part of what we have to work on with the color ramps for our ini files.

Ah, of course. The colour ramps. I really ought to figure them out sometime because, if I'm not mistaken, can't you completely change the colours of the skybox and the ambient lighting with them? I want to make my lighting more realistic, and in doing so I think I'll make the daytime sky brighter so that ReShade will make it more blown out. As ugly as it may be in photography for light to be clipping, I think it'd be great in TS3.

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dodgy builder
#12 Old 2nd May 2017 at 11:24 AM
Quote: Originally posted by GrijzePilion
Ah, of course. The colour ramps. I really ought to figure them out sometime because, if I'm not mistaken, can't you completely change the colours of the skybox and the ambient lighting with them? I want to make my lighting more realistic, and in doing so I think I'll make the daytime sky brighter so that ReShade will make it more blown out. As ugly as it may be in photography for light to be clipping, I think it'd be great in TS3.


It might be ugly, but this monstrosity of a thread might teach you something about it: http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=459198

I tried it, but it took too long, I had a world to finish.

Also I assume, as an educated person, that color banding isn't it's technical term. The educated people probably has a lengthy term with 50% latin they use to describe this phenomenon. Perhaps they even shorten it, or just use different words on a daily conversation with educated collegues.
dodgy builder
#13 Old 2nd May 2017 at 11:35 AM
As someone who works mostly in ts4 these days, this is a storm in glass of water.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#14 Old 2nd May 2017 at 11:54 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Volvenom
Also I assume, as an educated person, that color banding isn't it's technical term. The educated people probably has a lengthy term with 50% latin they use to describe this phenomenon. Perhaps they even shorten it, or just use different words on a daily conversation with educated collegues.

It's a thing in photography, and I'm pretty sure it's what photographers call the phenomenon.
Quote: Originally posted by Gargoyle Cat
I think saving files as PNG files does help, but I don't know of any game-altering solution.

FRAPS, of course, saves all captures without compression. It's only when I save the screenshot as a smaller jpeg (Imgur has a 5Mb size threshold, above which it horribly compresses your image by itself) that any sort of compression occurs. And even then, I usually set the quality setting at 95% or higher.
Quote: Originally posted by Gargoyle Cat
I personally have found it easier to simply adapt how I take screenshots. EA isn't going to fix this issue, so there is no point in making myself crazy over it.

And while that's true, and a good point as well, I've learned never to be satisfied with something if you have any reason at all to expect it could be better. Or at least in TS3's case, because back when my game looked like this I also thought that was the end of it. It wasn't, and it isn't.

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Mad Poster
Original Poster
#15 Old 2nd May 2017 at 12:04 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Volvenom
As someone who works mostly in ts4 these days, this is a storm in glass of water.

Now there's an expression I don't know. You mean to say that TS4 has so many problems that this would just be a tiny detail in the whole spectrum of bugged shite?

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Mad Poster
Original Poster
#16 Old 2nd May 2017 at 12:18 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Gargoyle Cat
You can do that with the invisible lights in buy mode that are accessed though the buydebug cheat, or use the lights from Buhudain. I prefer the lights from Buhudain because there are many of them and they can be used in all different directions. The catch in either case is that they cannot be colored like regular EA lights can. So, the solution is to use colored lights with game lamp, then fill in the rest of the scene with invisible lights.

Already doing that. And yes, you can recolour the invisible lights. It's a shift-click in Build Mode instead of a normal click in Live Mode.

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dodgy builder
#17 Old 2nd May 2017 at 3:37 PM
Quote: Originally posted by GrijzePilion
Now there's an expression I don't know. You mean to say that TS4 has so many problems that this would just be a tiny detail in the whole spectrum of bugged shite?


Yes, totally. Limited to graphics though. I don't wanna include all shite available, just the thing I have to look at everyday.
Mad Poster
Original Poster
#19 Old 2nd May 2017 at 6:01 PM
Quote: Originally posted by nitromon
However, it actually doesn't bother me all that much b/c I know this is an old game from 2009. Much of what they're doing in TS3 is outdated by today's standard, but were great innovations at the time.

If I were reasonable (and I think I sometimes am in some ways), I'd agree with you.
But I also feel that the absence of a new and good life simulation game means that it's up to ol' TS3 to fulfill that role. And while TS3 mostly is what it is in terms of gameplay, graphics are what distinguishes every game in terms of age. And I like good graphics, I understand good graphics. I know that TS3 does some things that were pretty neat in 2009, but it's obviously all old news anno 2017. So when there's something missing, I try to make it happen. When something could be improved, I'll try to.
And right now I think the next big step after ReShade, which practically decimates the graphical lead that TS4 has over TS3, is to decompile and rewrite the shaders used by the game.
And when you can just modify shaders, you can do whatever the hell you want.

I want to be the first person to make an actual shader mod for TS3. I'm gonna make a realistic shader mod and a cartoon one. I think I'll bump up the interior shadows, the cubemap resolution, the properties of outdoor shading and I think I'll give the water reflections a try as well. And for the cartoon one, I'll see if I can make the whole thing look like Overwatch or something.

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Mad Poster
Original Poster
#21 Old 2nd May 2017 at 6:33 PM Last edited by GrijzePilion : 2nd May 2017 at 7:03 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by nitromon
Personally I'm more annoyed by the fading shadow distance, which I believe someone explained as an engine limitation which cannot be fixed. But the "none multi-floor" lighting issue should be doable since it worked before and was borked by an expansion. Ahh EA ... dammit.

Yes, of course! I can't believe I forgot about the both of them. They're terrible things and I'll absolutely love to fix them. And if I'm ever successful, I'll even try to help others wanting to make their own shaders....but not initially. I like the idea of having a monopoly on something people want. I really do.
And since I'm so desperate for appreciation, I mean, open to positive feedback, I'll try and make sure the UI always renders on top when using ReShade.

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Mad Poster
#22 Old 2nd May 2017 at 7:11 PM
Quote: Originally posted by GrijzePilion
And when you can just modify shaders, you can do whatever the hell you want.

Not entirely true. There are still limitations. Like with the water shader mod for The Sims 2, as an example.

Quote: Originally posted by GrijzePilion
I want to be the first person to make an actual shader mod for TS3. I'm gonna make a realistic shader mod and a cartoon one. I think I'll bump up the interior shadows, the cubemap resolution, the properties of outdoor shading and I think I'll give the water reflections a try as well. And for the cartoon one, I'll see if I can make the whole thing look like Overwatch or something.

Keep us informed on your progress and findings. They will be very beneficial.

Because the earth is standing still, and the truth becomes a lie
A choice profound is bittersweet, no one hears Cassandra Goth cry

Mad Poster
Original Poster
#23 Old 2nd May 2017 at 8:51 PM Last edited by GrijzePilion : 2nd May 2017 at 10:43 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by HarVee
Not entirely true. There are still limitations. Like with the water shader mod for The Sims 2, as an example.

True, but isn't that shader just gorgeous? I'd almost be inclined to say it has no right to be in a 2004 game. And TS3 is already a step above and beyond TS2,
These days, the increasing realism comes from better shaders with more advanced effects. We no longer need more polygons, higher resolutions et cetera, so that won't be a problem at all for TS3. These days it comes from the striking clear blue sky, from razor sharp reflections in puddles, and from painstaking precision in ambient colour palettes.

I'll present these Watch Dogs 2 screenshots, which I think you could mistake for TS3 with relatively little imagination.




And for comparison, two very similar scenes.
Bad shaders:

Good shaders:

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Mad Poster
Original Poster
#25 Old 3rd May 2017 at 12:16 PM Last edited by GrijzePilion : 3rd May 2017 at 12:46 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by nitromon
It wouldn't really be fair to compare TS3 to those games b/c TS3 is not simply an open world engine, but every building (except the shells) are custom built and also the AI in the game is much more sophisticated than the average open world game. [...]
In order for TS3 to truly be able to match those graphics, it will use up more resources and needs a modern machine to do so such as using 4-8 cores CPU, and using 10-16GB of RAM, which we were all hoping what TS4 was going to be, a modern remake of TS3.

I know. But I wouldn't have brought it up if I didn't. I have a "4-8 core CPU" and "10-16GB of RAM", and that's why I want to see what I can do with it.
Since I uploaded my ReShade preset here I've been working on making it more realistic, less distracting and less demanding. So far, I've succeeded on all counts. And I'm going to keep improving and changing things, and I'll only stop when my PC does.
Quote: Originally posted by nitromon
Also, if you want the game to look more realistic, shaders is not the only way. These are screenshots that I've done using photoshop. However, all I did was adjust the contrast/brightness to get a more realistic feel. Now, I've actually done this to make the game run with this setting. I think I just used the Windows desktop setting to change the brightness/contrast. This of course affects monitor, so whatever screenshot you take won't reflect the change. But I'm sure Reshade should be able to make contrast/brightness changes.

And of course you can do that, but I think that's a matter of preference.

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